Quaker with heart disease

[Wolf]

I am quite sure that no harm was meant, I know that she is devoted to the well being of not only her parrots but every parrot. But she is right about avian medicine being in its infancy, despite the fact that people have had parrots as pets for hundreds, perhaps, thousands of years. Unfortunately this is also true of many other branches of veterinary medicine. It is a fact that the majority op owners are not aware of. It is because of this that she takes the position that we who have birds, need to educate ourselves in order to be assured that our birds receive the care that they truly deserve. Her statement was not meant as a reflection on you ,but rather on the state of avian medicine.
I feel your loss and am so sorry for it. It is always an extremely difficult time when one loses a dear friend and I know that there is nothing that I can do to ease your sense of loss, but I truly wish you well.

[sam4life]

Dear Wolf,
Thanks for the note. But whether intentional or not, harm was done. And as someone who kept her much loved parrot alive and, until the very end, healthy and happy for a very long time, I really don't appreciate her "advice." My mother and I nurtured our parrot for 42 of his 45+ years. Can Pajarita claim anything like that? No, I don't think so.

Anyway, sorry to hijack the thread. I was just trying to offer some helpful info about Pimbendan to the OP.

[Wolf]

I understand and I don't see this as you hijacking anything. I am sure that the OP appreciated your effort, I know that I do. Thank you.

[Pajarita]

I am sorry you took my comment that way, it wasn't meant as a scolding for you, it was meant for everybody who has birds. I know well the feeling of guilt you are talking about. I have it, too. I've had several birds that were misdiagnosed and given the wrong treatment by avian vets and a couple of them died because of it. I once rescued an ex-breeder OWA male, paid $900 to have him checked and tested, was told he had a sinus and eye infection, given antibiotic drops both oral and to put in his eyes. Bird was still acting sick, took him back to the vet who did more blood work and was told he was fine. Bird was lethargic and ate too much, took him back to the vet, was told he was fine. By the fourth time, his liver enzymes were off but, by then, it was too late and the bird died about a month later. He had aflatoxin poisoning all along and the vet (the best and oldest avian vet in the area!) had not caught it and kept on telling me he was fine! That's how I learned not to trust avian vets 100%, to do my own research and trust my own gut feelings.

The fact that people accept an avian vet's advice or diagnosis as the gospel is a huge beef of mine. People even consult them on diet and behaviors when they never study these subjects in school and, instead of telling the owners they really cannot give an informed opinion on them, they allow them to believe they know what they are talking about!

Same thing with conditions that end up been medical but have their roots in husbandry -like sexual hormones, for example. Bring a chronic layer to an avian vet and he/she would recommend Lupron or a similar medicine instead of telling the owner to keep the bird at a strict solar schedule and a diet lower in protein. They would rather mess up the bird's endocrine system even more than it is than explain how a bird's body works. And the sad thing is that their 'solution' doesn't work with all birds or even in the long term for the ones that does while the easy one (but which doesn't put any money in their pockets) does it every time!

It was not against you, like I said, I've been there and know what you feel. It was meant to reiterate my 'soapbox' issue.

[sam4life]

Dear Pajarita
Well, your post was addressed to me, so it is difficult to understand how it wasn't intended "against me." (Oh, and I love the non-apology, i.e., "I'm sorry you took my comments that way...") I'm certain you could not know what I'm feeling or you would have never posted what you posted which, by your own admission, is your soapbox issue and did not actually add anything new to the discussion at hand. Moreover, you have never had a 40 year relationship with a parrot.

If your lack of basic human sympathy was balanced by a deep commitment to the wellbeing of non-human animals, it might be something I could look past. But reading through a number of your condescending and self-rightous posts, a darker portrait emerges. I would never deem to speak with such "authority" as you even though I have literally double the number of years of parrot care experience. Moreover, your history of bird keeping is, by your own admission, chock full of stories of parrots who have died from what look like preventable ailments and injuries (e.g., parrots who have "heart attacks" after jumping down from their cages or birds who get their heads caught in cage bars). Rather than grandly declaring how we shouldn't listen to trained professionals and giving seemingly authoritative (but, in at least several cases I saw, seriously misguided) bits of advice to naive parrot keepers, perhaps you might want to think about what motivates you to hoard large numbers of birds, allow them to die of preventable injuries and illnesses, and then have the gall to spend hours of your life holding forth on this blog as if you are some sort of expert.

[marie83]

Sam4 life, I understand your upset but we have to assume that anyone on here is telling the truth. . You simply shouldn't do around accusing people of injuring or causing illness to their animals, when they have always made it quite clear they take on lots of rescue birds and that is how they arrive. Of course pajarita will have made mistakes in the past but to throw those sort of accusations about is nothing but slander.

I don't like everything she says, I don't agree with everything she says but you just cannot lash out at people like that. I think your still grieving tbh so do take care of yourself.

[Pajarita]

Sam4life, you are making accusations without having any concrete information whatsoever. I don't hoard birds, my birds live cage-free with natural tree branches for perches, eat fresh organic food every day (made by me -not pellets), are kept at a strict solar schedule, have the best full spectrum light available and have medical attention. Plus, I proudly show my birdroom to anybody who walks through my front door (my daughter is always making fun of me because of this). These are not the actions of a hoarder. Furthermore, I've had the ASPCA and the local Animal Control officer inspect my birdroom (courtesy of my old neighbor who complains she can't sleep until 9:30 am because my birds 'chirp' too much and I sing and talk too loud in the birdroom) as well as the USDA when I had the rescue and I passed all of them with flying colors so, no, no hoarding here. And I don't remember having a bird died of a heart attack after jumping from his cage so I think you might be confused. Birds that died? Yes, quite a number of them, unfortunately. I had a psittacosis epidemic years ago thanks to some tiels I took in from an upstate NY rescue that was closing which I was told had been tested but had not and lost a number of them (6 altogether which is not bad considering I had 240 at that time and the usual mortality in aviaries is 10%). Plus, I take in the ones that rescues don't want and that includes old birds that had bad lives which reduces their lifespan considerably. When you get a 40 + year old amazon hen with 4 times the levels of liver enzymes, uric acid off the chart, high cholesterol, high white cells, enlarged liver, enlarged heart, etc there is not that much that you can do for the poor animal but this particular parrot has been living with me for 7 years and, although she continues to decline, she is still alive so, obviously, the care I give them is not that deficient.

You claim to have had a single bird for 40 years (you never mention the species but, going by the age, it was, most likely, a wild-caught which are healthier, stronger and much more longevous than captive-bred) and, going by your postings, you seem to think that grants you a certain stature in the birdkeeping world. It doesn't. And I am not saying this to 'get back at you'... I've care for birds for over 45 years (got my first one at 13), hand-fed my first baby parrot at 10 (under my grand-mother's supervision) and have rescued parrots for 22 years. For about four or five years, I had around 240 parrots in my rescue. I am not mentioning these facts because I think this experience gives me any particular stature or makes me an expert but because dealing with so many of them and most of them with medical and/or behavioral issues, teaches you a bit. And that's what I do: I share what I've learned. Nobody has to agree or follow my advice but it is based on scientific research, avian medicine text books and personal, hands on experience and that's why I sound so assertive on my postings: because I've been there.

If you don't like my style, you are welcome not to read my postings, to read them and not act on them or to argue with me but just going on and on about how offended you are and immediately proceed to libel (it's written in a public forum so it goes further than slander) only gratifies you momentarily and doesn't really help anybody.

The sad part is that, in reality, the whole thing started by your posting about an avian vet prescribing the wrong medicine which implied EXACTLY what I advocate all the time: don't take your avian vet's advice as the gospel, do your own research and don't do it on birdsites, go to the scientific sources. So, when you go down to it, we agree 100% on the message. And we both arrived at it the same way: making a mistake which made us feel terribly guilty. You did when you took your avian vet's advice without doing your own research and I did exactly the same thing with the OWA. Only, in my case, it's worse because, after all, you just had the one parrot, your own pet, while the birds I care for are birds I took in from other people assuring them they would get the very best treatment so I did not only fail the birds, I also failed the ex-owners. And myself! Because, you, as an owner, do not have the moral onus to have a whole lot of knowledge but a rescuer does... Unfortunately for the birds and us, when it comes to bird keeping, making mistakes is part and parcel for the simple reason that not even avian vets know enough about birds.

And if you did not like my previous apology, here goes another one: I am very sorry I offended you. Now, it's your turn to apologize for your insults...

[sam4life]

Good luck with the lawsuit. Everything I wrote was based on information provided in your posting history. I have no idea who you are and did not attempt to tarnish your reputation. If I were you, I'd be more worried about getting sued for liable by the vet who you identified through a detailed description and then alleged improper care.

I won't be posting here anymore. As they say, no good deed goes unpunished. I was reaching out and trying to help someone, and all I got in return was more misery.

[Pajarita]

Ahhhh, mystery solved! It wasn't that I was offensive, it's that you have a penchant for second guessing what you think it's written between the lines! Where did I say that I was thinking of suing you? Why would I bother? It's not as if your opinion of me makes me any never-mind or can cause me any harm whatsoever...

But, in any case, please feel free to post again, we don't hold grudges here and always welcome personal experiences, especially when it comes to medical conditions, diagnosis, prognosis, treatments, etc. precisely because we, as birdkeepers, need to be informed ourselves instead of relying 100% on avian vets. But, if you don't want to stay, I wish you luck and hope you will consider adopting a bird that needs a good home.

[sam4life]

When educated people use the term "libel" and distinguish it from "slander" they recognize that these are technical legal terms with specific meanings. One wouldn't use these terms if one didn't intend to imply some sort of threat of legal action. Unless, on the other hand, one causally throws around terms-- legal, medical, etc--that they don't really understand. But I'm glad to hear you don't intend to sue me for pointing out that you don't have a stellar track record, by your own admission, of keeping birds alive. Of course, sadly, birds die all the time, but if your position is that we shouldn't put our trust in avian vets because they are prone to make deadly mistakes and are incompetent in various ways, then you ought to have a really good track record yourself. A better record than the vets you criticize. Given what you have written about your own experiences of birds dying in your care, I personally don't see reasons for thinking that you have that track record. Again, I'm basing this opinion, and it is just an opinion and not an assertion of fact, solely on what you yourself have reported in your posts.

Oh, and I was never "offended" by anything you wrote; I'm completely gutted and filled with all kinds of guilt and remorse about the death of my parrot, and I'm angry that you would add salt to the wounds of someone who is already clearly suffering. What purpose could that possibly serve?

In addition, I'm indignant that a person who, as far as I know, lacks veterinary training would offer medical advice with such authority to new parrot owners who don't know any better. If you put your advice in terms of "this worked for me under conditions, a,b, and c," that might be helpful, but you actually claim, over and over again in your posts to have authoritative knowledge of complicated conditions when there is no reason to believe that you do, in fact, have this knowledge. Your own self-described track-record shows this. And this is extremely dangerous when you give advice to people who are completely ignorant about parrots.

Thanks for offering me permission to post again. I didn't realize you had that authority too, but it is good to know.

Your last comment to me is probably the most telling of all. I am totally devastated by the death of my long time companion. If I told you my child just died would you say, "Oh, there are many needy children out there, I hope you consider getting another one"? Most people would find that a ghastly response. While I recognize there are many parrots in need of good homes, I have no intention of getting another parrot. I miss *my* parrot. The particular individual I spent almost 40 years with. He is not fungible. But I guess someone who, for whatever reason/psychological need, collects hundreds of parrots could not understand that.