Intestinal problem, watery poop

[bean]

I have hemp seeds on hand, I fed it to Bean every day, a pinch or two added to his crock, but stopped after his diagnosis, fearing they were bad for his liver due to fat. I also have quinoa, do I cook it the same as other grains?
Also, as I ad more vegetables to Beans gloop, his bowl is getting more full, but the last 3 days, by noon he ate it. About 1/3 cup or slightly over. I gave him a little more to pick at til seeds at dinner time. But I dont know if that was right or not. Seems like a lot of food, and I dont know if parrots can over eat or not.

[Wolf]

I give Mimi, my amazon, about a half of a measuring cup of Gloop every morning and have been considering cutting back a little as they can overeat in relation to the exercise that they get. Amazons appear to be the most prone to obesity of the parrots that I know of. But I would think that Bean might be a little extra hungry as he was refusing to eat the Gloop until very recently. Again this is where Pajarita has more experience and would be a better source of information than I am.

[bean]

Yes Wolf your right, he went a couple weeks where he was eating very little. When you say half a measuring cup, do you mean 1/2 of a 1 cup? I have to get over to the excercise section to start looking for ideas on excercise. I dont know if I will ever have the courage to let my Bean fly un-tethered, but maybe I can at least find some other ways for now. I am also tring to get him a light hooked up. Anyway, I will wait to hear fro Pajarita on the issue of quanity of food. By the way, he is now eating gloop with beets, corn, celery, white beans, mixed greens, carrots, squash, and peas. So far. I will keep trying to add more

[Wolf]

I worded the way that I did only to signify that I used a measuring cup and not some other kind of cup, but yes just a half a cup of food. Now that Bean is eating this variety just add the veggies in with the whole grains and legumes mix them up and just feed the normal amount of food that way the amount of food doesn't change just what is in the mix.
As for exercise, the only exercise that really does them any good it flight. If Bean doesn't already know how to fly then you will need to get him to start flapping his wings to start him using his flight muscles. This can be accomplished by moving fast down a hall or other enclosed space and by raising and lowering your hand with him on it fast enough to get him to flap, but using a fast pace down a hall or across a room works better. As for outside flight I do not recommend free flight as it is too risky and you don't want to lose your bird so only fly him with a harness on outside. I also suggest that if he goes outside that he be in a cage or wearing a harness just to be safe. It doesn't take much to have a bird fly away, a sudden gust of wind or getting scared is all it takes, so don't risk it.

[Pajarita]

I give my birds more than enough gloop to last them all day (most of them have leftover by evening) and, even though they eat as much as they want of it, they don't get fat (well, I have a couple of handicapped tiels that are a bit too chunky but they are also old) and I always wondered why this was as everybody else is always limiting their parrots' food intake in order to keep them at a good weight. But, about two months ago, I had an AHA! moment when I read in this women's fitness magazine I subscribe to about this brand new diet where you eat as much as you want of whatever you want (pasta, bread, etc included) only everything has to be whole (as in whole grains), unprocessed (as in no white sugar, no white flour, no white rice, no prepared food, etc), and organic and you would still lose weight because, apparently, the body processes natural food in a completely different way! And no wonder because natural and unprocessed food IS what the body was created to eat so I am thinking that, if it works this way for man, the ultimate domesticated animal, it must work the same way for parrots which are not only still undomesticated but just a few generations away from the wild.

[Pajarita]

Thanks for all the information. I will go over all of it latter. I sent Pajarita a message asking her if I can fax the lab results to her. I have tried for a few days to get the results in a file on my computer so I can attach the file or cut and past. I want to post them and see what you think.

One good thing is the vets secretary said my bird is in heat. After she talked to the vet he said the same thing. Thats why he is screaming all day. He is acting like the times he was in heat. I hope its just once a year. I feel better about that.

I called to talk to his vet and the Vet said he has done everything he can do and gave me the name of a specialist. Next week I will call for an appointment.
I am not as panicked, but I need to get this done soon

OK. Again, I am not a vet, I have NO formal training, just a bit of experience, a good memory and a couple of avian medicine texts so don't take what I am telling you as the gospel because I could easily be peeing outside the chamber pot (a vulgar Spanish saying). And what I found is that your poor bird is going to need more tests done because although the blood work results do show a problem, they are of the kind that doesn't really tell you what, exactly, the problem could be.

Your conures showed quite unusual results:

It has a low heterophil count combined with a high lymphocyte and monocyte. All three of these are white cells, used to combat infection, inflammation, etc. BUT, normally, when you have high of one, you also have high of another with the heterophils been the ones found in largest numbers and the ones that 'react' the first so, usually, when there is infection, their count is high. In your bird's case, it's low and this could mean a couple of things but the most common cause is a chronic infection that has taxed the immune system so much that it can no longer fight it adequately (thus the low number instead of a high one). And the combined high lympho and monos usually means chronic, like psittacosis or systemic fungal infection but it was tested for chlamydiosis and found negative (was it tested for aspergillosis?).

Then you have the super low bile acids, AST and uric acid and these are the 'stumpers' because, in sick parrots, you almost always find these values elevated. As a matter of fact, I looked and looked and looked at ALL the Hematology and Biochemistries chapters in my books as well as all the online references and have not been able to find a single one that has all these three at unusually low levels. I found some references that might indicate a heavy metal problem as well as a thyroid problem but nothing else (has the bird been tested for metal and thyroid?) but, then, if it was either, it would not 'click' with the low heterophils/high monocytes and lymphocites which indicate systemic and/or chronic infection.

I gotta go now to the vet but I'll be back with more.

[Pajarita]

Well, I wrote this long posting and, when I went to submit it, I lost it so here it goes again.

First of all, sorry for having to cut it short yesterday but I had run out of thyroid medicine for one of my old cats and, at her age (21), she can't afford to be without it.

Further to the results, people usually think that low levels of something that is always bad when they are elevated is a good thing but it's not. There is a reason why there are levels and too low is sometimes worse than too high and this is the case with bile acids and uric acid.

Bile is made in the liver, transported through bile ducts and released into the small intestine for digestion. It has a couple of other functions (it kills food bacteria and such) but the most important one is the digestion of fats - without bile, fat is not 'broken down' or absorbed by the body and all bodies need fat to function correctly. Most if it is 'used up' in the small intestine but whatever is leftover gets carried back into the liver (this only happens to species that don't have a gall bladder, like parrots). Normally, when you have liver malfunction, the bile acids end up too high in the blood even when the enzymes are still at a normal level. I looked EVERYWHERE (avian medicine texts, online avian medicine references and other sites) for references on too low bile acids and found only two main ones in the medicine texts: one is severe liver malfunction (it's no longer producing enough) and the other is blocked ducts (they don't get to the small intestine). Same thing with uric acid which is the 'leftover or byproduct' of protein, too much uric acid means a diet too high in protein but the one single reference for hypouricemia (low uric acid), and I am quoting: "hypouricemia may suggest severe hepatic disease". Now, regardless of what is causing these results in terms of disease, the other problem you have is that there is also the consequence of severe nutritional deficiencies because you need the fat and protein metabolized correctly in order to maintain health.

Now, if this bird was mine, I would put him on a strict organic, fresh food diet with supplements that would boost the immune system and bile production as well as liver cleansers (which might not work at all but will not hurt and what the heck, I would try anything!) but I would also make an appointment for a liver biopsy because although there are other diagnostic steps that are not as intrusive, like Xrays, ultrasound, metal testing and endoscopy, but I think that the definitive one will end up being the biopsy and, in my personal and semi-uniformed opinion (you need to talk about this more in depth with your AV), there is no time to waste.

Sorry I could not be of more help to you but I really could not find anything anywhere that 'matched' the symptoms and blood work results.

[liz8200]

Thanks, The two vets have both been puzzled by has case. The 2nd vet just said he's fine.
You have done an in depth study on the tests and you do make since.
Wouldnt it be a big deal to have a liver biopsy on a bird? He's so small, somehow the vets can work on their little bodies.
I am thinking now about the fact that he had a small amount of blood on his anus. I hate to think him being in pain. I can't think of any infection that would bleed but I would think the numbers would be affected by whatever that was. Does that make more sense for him to have the probe put inside his anus?
You said you would talk to his AV, does that mean his vet? What would I talk to him about. Should I ask him to do some more tests ? Maybe the probe.

I bought some protein powder the pet store said they sprinkle on top of the food. Did you say that his body is not processing protein? Should I not use it on his food, only my cockatiel? What is good for the liver cleanse and immune system?
I will make fresh goop all organic and see if I can get him to eat more of it. I am using bottled water too. How do they treat metal poisoning?
Thanks for helping me process all the information and for looking at everything together. I want to get him taken care of soon. I don't feel comfortable going out of town. I would worry to much and not trust anyone to care for him the way I do.

Thanks you guys for staying up on all this and taking it all so seriously.

[Pajarita]

Well, yes, of course they are puzzled! Like I said, there are no clinical diagnostic charts that show these results anywhere so they are pretty much in the dark as to what is causing this and that's why they want to go deeper and to the most likely source which would be the liver - hence their recommending the biopsy.

I would not use protein powder with any bird regardless of whether it's healthy or sick. Protein is necessary for life (and that's why the low uric acid is so troubling!) but captive birds diet are almost always way too high in it and this is what destroys the liver and kidneys.

I would put him on a completely organic gloop with organic produce (lots of cruciferous and foods rich in vit C and betacarotene). I would supplement with milk thistle, dandelion root, methionine (SamE's even better), vit 6, B12, a good probiotic, DMG, Echinacea (5 days on a row and stop for 2), cat's claw, turmeric, gingko biloba and artichoke.

I agree with you that any other diagnostic test will be stressful to him but, my dear, this is not something you can treat with diet and herbals alone for the simple reason that nobody knows what, exactly, is wrong with him. Increasing protein is not going to help if he cannot metabolize it and I am sure that he is already eating more than enough. I don't mean to scare you but I doubt he will last long unless something is done soon - if, at this point in time, there is anything that can be done... but, even if there isn't, you need to know so you can make the right decision because you would not want him to suffer unnecessarily. He could already be suffering for all you know -I doubt his screams are because he is hormonal because he is too sick to be in breeding condition (he needs protein for that and he is not getting it, and not because he is not ingesting it but because it's not getting metabolized). Just to give you an idea, if what he has is advanced and severe liver disease, this means that his liver is not filtering the toxins out of his blood which, in turn, means progressive internal organ and neurological damage culminating in terrible seizures and death. Not something one would want a beloved companion to go through.

[bean]

After reading the lab results posted on the prior page I hope that bird is doing better, but I am disheartened, and see just how sick Bean is when I compare the two. Beans numbers are off the chart. The only solice I have, is that Bean is seemingly doing a little better. His colors look a better, he is talking more, playing more, eating better etc. I have to hope that there is a chance here somewhere. Here is what Bean is eating. Carrots, peas, corn, beets, sweet potato, squash, celery, mixed greens, peppers (red/green),white beans, oranges, cantelope, some raspberries, artichoke hearts, a little hemp seeds, plus his grains in the pilaf. Is there anything else that anyone sees that I am missing that I should be feeding him, or should remove. He still gets his 3 nutriberiies and a pice of Avicake at dinner time. I still wish their was another wasy to get his protien, other that this. Also, what is this Aloe Detox I heard about? Is there anything to this? Is it worth trying or not? Thanks.