Totally RUBBISH diet, worried about fatty liver thing

[Polly-anna97]

I am very worried, not to mention extremely bewildered about my new Pionus's diet, and the seemingly endless conflicting information I am coming up against.

She eats nothing but seeds ( albeit a good quality mix), apple, grapes ( when on occasion I give them), and dried banana and tiny bits of wholemeal toast, as treats.

I am fairly sure that previous to the owner I bought her from, who only had her for less than two months- she was on a seed only diet. The previous owner told me she ate all fruit- pommegranate being the only thing she would not touch. The only fruit I have noted her eat, is, as I said, apple, which she has everyday, and grape, which is occasional, as I have read a lot about them ( and fruit in general being too high in sugar. However I have been reading old posts on here for help, and came across something by Parajita saying that this is not the case.

When I bought her ( two weeks ago tomorrow), the previous owner told me that she had taken her to the vet ( not an avian specific one), before she brought her home. He had trimmed her MASSIVELY overgrown beak, and basically given her a clean bill of health. I read a post on hear by Wolf, about some budgies who had overgrown beaks, and that this was an indication of liver disease, and Pajarita had written something along the lines of, if their poohs were very dark, the, they would have to be put down.

I am worried because I know that pionus are highly susceptible to fatty liver thing, and gout. Her poohs are indeed very dark ( the green bit of course, the white bit is just white), and that coupled with the fact that her beak was very overgrown ( and still looks to be so actually IMO- although I know BH pi's are pretty bad for overgrown beaks), and knowing that she eats a lot of seeds, has really got me stressing.

I have been told by pretty much everyone in the UK, to never leave a bird without a food that they eat regularly- to be fair this was in relation to my cockatiels, but am assuming this holds true to all parrots
, because they can starve very quickly. So I have been leaving the seed in all day. I see however, that lots of you guys say to absolutely not do this.

Also my avian vet (who is reputed to be one of the best in the UK), swears by Harrisons pellets, and then I read on here that they are really not all that.

I have seen mentioned a lot on here this famous 'gloup'. I haven't been able to come across the actual recipe, but have for the one for birdie bread, which I intend to whip up a batch of this weekend. Can anyone please direct to where I can find this recipe?

I read that pionus need extra vitamin A to give their immune systems an extra boost, as they are so suceptible to infections. I have been told that they need extra calcium. She is scared of A LOT of things, and will not go near a cuttlefish bone or a mineral block. She has one of these ' pedi perches which she sits on as it is next to her seed dish, but I also read on here that these are a no, no. I have some stuff called nutribol which is a vitamin supplement, but have yet to administer it, as the instructions on how to do so are sketchy to say the least.

I found a list of suitable fruits and vegetables that Pajarita posted for someone, which I have written down and pasted into a book of info I am collecting from here. I was very surprised to hear that spinach was not a great thing to feed, as I had always heard the polar opposite.

Also she is in our living room at the moment, as I wanted her to be in the hub of the home. This room is not at all 'dark', but I worry that it is not bright enough, and that this in turn will be affecting what vitamins she needs. I am looking into getting some full spectrum lighting- but that, and indeed the whole cage situation, is another post.

Can anyone please help me with what EXACTLY and how exactly I should proceed to feed her. I am worried that she will wither away if I remove the seed, and it does run contrary to so much of the advice I have been given, but it does make so much sense not to have it there all the time. I am reading so much, on the internet, in books and in different forums, ( although this is the only one I have actually ever posted on), all conflicting information, my head is spinning. I have resolved now to only look at this forum, it seems to be the most experience and knowledge rich one, in an attempt not to get overwhelmed. I am trying to figure this out myself, but as I say, I am so confused with the huge volume of conflicting advice.

I have not stopped trying to give her a large variety of fruit and veg, but no joy so far.

Any advice most gratefully received. Thank you

[Pajarita]

The first thing you need to do is ask the vet that gave her a clean bill of health if he ran a bile acids test because this is the ONLIEST test that will tell you, for a fact, whether there is liver malfunction or not. Without complete blood work and a full body XRay, there is no way on this earth that anybody (avian vets included) could give a clean bill of health. This is not my opinion, it's a fact. Now, taking into consideration her age, previous diet and the fact that she had/has an overgrown beak and unless there is a malformation of that beak (when the top part does not meet the bottom part straight or completely), I would think that there is a 99% chance that there are liver issues. The bile acids test will tell you that because it measures liver function directly while the chemical panel that most AVs rely on only tells you the amount of liver enzymes that ended up in the bloodstream BUT the body will always try to 'normalize' blood levels even when the organ is not working right so you only see the levels of liver enzymes go out of whack when the liver is working at 25% and it simply can no longer 'normalize' the blood values.

Personally, I would start her on a detox anyway (I do it to every single bird I get regardless of what the blood work says because it's always best to start with a slate as clean as possible and take it from there). This means a low protein diet, high hydration (no pellets, no dehydrated or freeze-dried food, no bottles for water) and herbals to cleanse and tonic liver and kidneys (aloe vera juice from the inner filet -not the whole leaf and not the gel, alcohol-free milk thistle and dandelion root extracts, methionine or SamE and black cherry extract).

I have posted the gloop recipe many times but maybe we need a sticky for it. Gloop is a dish made out of cooked whole grains, pulses, some very specific seeds and cooked and chopped vegetables. There is also mash and chop. Mash is more or less the same thing only everything is put through the food processor and I don't like it because we my birds prefer texture and not just something that resembles more a puree than anything else. Chop is very similar to gloop but it uses raw veggies instead of cooked ones - I don't like it because it doesn't hold well with freezing (it gets all mushy when it thaws and my birds don't like mushy) and also because most people use it as a substitute for fresh produce -something I don't agree with because you end up with a limited range of produce, no variety in their diet and no 'hand food'.

This is my gloop recipe but I am constantly doing more research and have changed it many, many times although I've been using this one for about 4 or 5 years now. You don't have to follow it, you can make your own recipe, this is just to give you an idea. There is a product called Kashi 7 Whole Grains Pilaf which has three little bags of seven different types of grain and you can cook it in the microwave which I think it's very practical for people that have only one bird. I tried it with my birds to test it as a recipe but I feed organic (Kashi is not organic), my birds do not like rye and I like to use Kamut so I buy the grains in bulk and just cook them on top of the stove (I have a lot of birds and I make large batches which I freeze).

I cook (lots of water - bring to a boil, lower the heat so it simmers) the grains and rices to an 'al dente' point (in case you are not familiar with the term, it means that they are not soft but firm and almost hard -al dente means 'to the tooth') and I combine the ones that require a similar length of time so I do:
- wheat kernels and kamut together (45 minutes)
- oat groats and hulled barley (30 minutes)
- rices (I use black japonica, red Himalayan, brown basmati and wild rice) and lentils (I use black lentils because they are little black balls that retain their shape very well so the birds like them better but you can use regular ones - 40 minutes)
I add an entire little can of tomato paste (excellent source of betacarotene and lycopene, one of the best cancer preventive antioxidants) to the water of the rices and lentils but, if you are going to use the Kashi (it brings 3 little bags of the grain mixture), you would have to use maybe a level teaspoonful.

Once they are cooked, I drain thoroughly, add beans (I only use small white beans because they are lowest in the bad lectin beans have and I use cans but I put them in a colander and rinse under running water very thoroughly) and mix together. To this I add a good sprinkle of flax seeds all year round (omega 3) and sesame seeds (methionine) during the warm weather (I stop once they are almost finished with their annual molt -about this time of the year).

Then I add the veggies. I use chopped broccoli, blue kale, peas and carrots, sweet corn, green beans (I chop the green beans into small pieces otherwise the little ones don't eat them), sweet potatoes (I bake in the skin, peel and cut in chunks), Butternut squash (I use the frozen cubes) and white hominy (from a can but, again, I rinse with running water in a colander) plus one more ingredient which changes from batch to batch, it could be Brussels sprouts, artichoke hearts, palm hearts, beets, cauliflower, etc.

Once everything is mixed, I split into daily portions, bag it and freeze it. Everyday, I take out a baggie and leave it out to thaw and, the following morning, I add the daily flavor to it. I alternate between spicy (they love hot stuff) and fruity (sweet) by adding spices and raw stuff to it like peppers, black olives (you need to get the low salt and rinse thoroughly), raisins, currants, dates, figs, garlic, oregano, pepper, chili powder, etc.


Now, the reason why she is not even trying fruits is because you are free-feeding her seeds (put them in a bowl in the morning and leave them there all day long) and that's a no-no with parrots because, as they are not natural seed eaters, nature has 'programmed' them to gorge on protein when they find it (there aren't any sources of high protein, high fat that are abundant and available all year round in nature). Eating mostly seeds is what gives them (among other things) fatty liver and gout (high uric acids -which is also determined by blood work). You need to feed her a small, measured (enough to fill her crop) low protein, low fat seed mix (use a budgie mix for now and switch to a safflower-based cockatiel one in two or three months) with one single tree nut -almond, half a walnut, etc- for dinner (start with a level 1/4 cup measure) and, once she is asleep, take away the bowl and, if you see there is anything left, reduce the portion the following night by a little less than the same amount you found as leftover (one always wants to give them the tiniest bit more just in case they are hungrier that day).

Start with a gloop made only with grains and beans and sprinkle a few seeds on it. Once you see her eating this for a few days with no problem, eliminate the seeds and start adding veggies to it slowly and gradually, start with corn (they all love corn), then add peas and carrots, then chopped broccoli, and so on and so forth. This should be accompanied by a piece of fruit (not only apple), a vegetable and a leafy green or a cruciferous (broccoli, cabbages). I don't feed spinach because it's very high in oxalic acid which inhibits calcium absorption and promotes gout.

The best way to get them to try a new food (parrots learn from their parents what to eat and what not to eat so, when the breeders wean them to seeds -cheapest and easiest- all they eat is seeds but you can teach her to try new things by eating them yourself in the morning when she eats her breakfast. This is a fabulous bonding experience (it's a social even for the flock) and it will teach her to trust your judgment when it comes to food. I know people who have gone as far as eating the gloop, I don't. I would if it was necessary but it has never been so I don't do it. But I do eat the produce with them and I always do the same thing: I tell them the name (say, apple) and tell them it's good (Apple! Apple is good. It's good!). The constant repetition of the same phrase associated with food they learn to like (start with apples as she already likes them) becomes a clue for a conditioned response which makes it easier to introduce new foods in the future because they learn to trust you and, when they hear the phrase, they know it's something good to eat even if they have never seen it before (you take on the role of parent who teaches them what is good to eat). I say other thing they also understand as well as use phrases they learned from their previous owners so as to make it easier for them to make the connection -for example, I have a YNA that says: "LOOKIE LOOKIE LOOKIE! MMMMMMMM FOR THE BIRD, THE BIRD, THE BIRD" when she sees food so I now say these too as well as "So yummy, so yummy, there's a party in my tummy!" in the same singsong the children's show characters use (Yo Gabba Gabba). Eating breakfast with me in the morning is a big thing for my birds so I make a big production of it.

I think I covered everything but let me know if you have any questions or doubts.

[tomanyales]

If your going to put a sticky this is the post. It has all the info that's take me weeks to find. I am still trying to get them to try gloup-its slow going. I had to get the trust of the birds before they would trust me to try new foods. It maybe just be to soon but don't give up trying. It took Piaya 3 months to come around and still waiting for Fred.

[Wolf]

It is almost always a long slow path to a good, healthy diet with parrots as they are suspicious of any and all new foods. But if you want to have a healthy bird then you just don't ever give up and there is such a variety of good foods for them that you will never run out of new ones to get them to eat.

[Harpmaker]

Keep trying. I gave my bird broccoli everyday for almost a year before I saw her actually eat it. She still tosses it out of her breakfast dish, but around lunch time she'll get it off the cage grate, carry it up her ladder to her food bowl, and nibble off and on all afternoon.

With only the one bird, I make up one serving of chop fresh every night, then refrigerate it until morning. Some extra-perishable stuff, like banana slices, get added at the last minute. Then I put it in the cage before I head out to work. This only works with a small flock, though.

[Polly-anna97]

Bless you Pajarita, truly, you and a couple of others on here ( you know who you are as they all say), should be knighted for the help you give so selflessly on here!

SO! I'm going SHOPPING! Not sure how available a lot of it may be here, but lets see what we can rustle up!

[Polly-anna97]

And thanks everyone else for your input. It's most heartening to hear your tales of persistance and pay off

[Pajarita]

Yes, indeed, most parrots don't eat a good diet because their owners gave up after a few months but it can takes years to get them to eat a well rounded diet (took me 5 with an African gray!). Parrot time is not like human time. What to us is a long time, to them is nothing so consistence, persistence and patience is what is required. ... As well as wasting A LOT of good food!