Need help!

[Pajarita]

Let us know what the blood work says.

I don't feed pellets and don't trust AV's advice on diet (they don't study parrot dietary ecology or even avian nutrition on any depth -and I know because I have the same text books they use), especially when they recommend Harrison's (did she sell the pellets to you?) but it's ultimately your choice. Personally, I would go with a multi-vitamin/mineral supplement for a while until the bird is eating a good fresh food diet and not with pellets (high in protein) on top of a diet of ten years that was high on protein. Doesn't make sense to me...

[Victor]

Nothing on the blood work yet.


I don't know if am going to put the birds on Harrison's line. As you know I like to understand what am doing. And do not do just because am told to. Having sead that. I have looked into the things you have told me. And found what you say to be true. My vet on the other hand seem to need to lean on others. Ok so the blood work needs to go to a lab. I can understand this. But she is having sumone els look at the X-rays as well. And I don't mind that. The more vets that look at it the better. But may eyes seen things that have me scared. So we will see.

When it comes to the handbook. She has clearly read it and is just quoting things in it. This was not so evident tell I read it. So I think am going to look into gray nutrition And cockatiel as well. ( looking at there wings I'd say they need difrant things. My thinking is that a cockatiel can fly faster then a gray and would need more energy/protein To keep them going. not to mention thay are so much smaller.

In the mean time maybe I can get sum whait off of them with one or two of the gloops on this site.
If one of the grays is fat I think it's safe to say his mate is likely fat as well. And if am going to put them on a better diet why not put the cockatiel on a better one as well. Ok am off to try and deside what to put who on. Any tips? It seems my old ways are just that old and need some updating.

[tomanyales]

Doctor, Vets as will as commom folks like myself know that heath and nutrition go hand and hand. To say that a AV's don't study nutrition or nutrition is something that just thrown to their study is a statement I have trouble believing. The fact that your vet wants him on nutrition diet as fast as you can show me how important nutrition is to your Vet. Doctor, Dentist and Vets carry on with their studies well after they finish schooling. The Vet has all kinds of resources at their disposal. The statement you made that your Vet will lean on othesr show me that she or he is willing to use other resource for the benefit of making your bird better. I sure your Vet will do follow up test to make sure the diet recommend is working. Your call but I am starting to rethink my bird's diet and a visit to the Vet will be part of it.

[Victor]

True but there are good vets and bad vets. Good doctors and bad doctors. Good pet owners and bad pet owners. Life is about deciding on witch cop your going to talk to. Pick the good cop and he will likely help you. Pick the bad cop and you may get shot. Professionals built the titanic but I would rather be on the ark as all the animals lived.

It's good you want to do what's best for your bird. So do I. Even if I means admitting that I have fell behind on my study's but please do some research. And don't just fallow a vet blindly just because he is a professional.

[Wolf]

I have found through years of working with vets privately and professionally that the more educated you are about the needs and problems associated with the animal that you are taking to the vet the better the vet will perform as a whole. Also it will help to weed out the less knowledgeable vet before any harm can be done. At least this seems to work for me.

[Pajarita]

To say that a AV's don't study nutrition or nutrition is something that just thrown to their study is a statement I have trouble believing.

Avian vets don't go to Avian Medicine School, there is no such thing. All you have is Veterinary school and that covers ALL animals but you specialize in 'small' (dog and cat) or 'large' (farm). Avian vets, same as the ones that treat exotic animals (like the ones in the zoo) study on their own and practice under another vet. Avian vets need to work for six years under a board certified avian vet and then take an exam, if they pass it, they become certified themselves. They study for this exam with their text book of choice (Dr, Harrison, the one that makes the pellets, has several books written with other vets). I have three text books of my own (you can order them through Amazon and see for yourself that I am not making this up) and I can assure you that they don't cover parrot nutrition. They do cover avian nutrition but in a very general way (mostly related to deficiencies in terms of symptoms and such) because, after all, this needs to cover chickens, eagles, parrots, hummingbirds, etc. It would be impossible to cover it in detail because different species of birds eat all different kinds of things (nectar, pollen, insects, seeds, fruits, fish, mice, etc).

Harrison's pellets are traditionally sold by vets and the sales guys visit them (and talk them up) personally so, as they also make a profit when they sell you the product, they seem to be 'inclined' to recommend them more than any other diet.

I've had several arguments with avian vets about pellets... I even had an argument with Dr. Harrison, himself (about fruits making parrots fat). I once had a clutch of Timbrados that had been born perfect but had developed deformed beaks as they grew up (they were narrower than the norm as if a sliver was missing from each side of the top beak) and I took them to my AV - she did not know what could have caused it so she went on a site where only veterinarians can go to consult with one another, and nobody had an answer but one guy who claimed it was due to improper diet because the birds were not eating pellets. Now, if I had been somebody who had just bought a canary at a petstore, I might have believed this was the reason and immediately switched it over to pellets but I've been caring for canaries for over 50 years and have a bit of knowledge about them. And I know that canaries not only are natural seed eaters in the wild but also that they have been bred -and fed seeds- since the 1400's so how could seeds be bad for a bird that nature evolved to eat seeds and that has thrived in captivity eating seeds for hundreds of years?! It was ludicrous to say the least! They do need fresh food and they would develop deficiencies if only fed seeds but my canaries get a different leafy green every day as well as a piece of fruit or a vegetable (they don't get both, just one of them) and my canaries are not only healthy, they live much longer than the average (I had a hen that lived to be 18 and gave me her last baby at 10 years of age) so I knew this guy did not know what he was talking about and was simply repeating something somebody had told him - and he was an AV!

And it's like Victor said, there are good vets and there are bad vets just like there are good and bad teachers and good and bad plumbers - a degree or a certification doesn't make you infallible and it always pays to make sure on your own. Most especially when it comes to parrot care as we are only now beginning to learn the basics of it.

Victor, yes, African grays and tiels do have different dietary needs. Tiels are partial ground foragers so seeds are not as bad for them as they are for other species of psittacines (mine get gloop for breakfast and a budgie seed mix for dinner). In my personal experience, they are not big on fruits but they do love their greens and some veggies (corn, sweet potato, peas, chopped broccoli). Grays are hard to convert to a good diet and that's why the gloop is so useful.

[Victor]

Shoot Pajarita you have already posted. So you likely won't see this tell tomorrow.
Anyway shuggie's blood work finally came back. And the vary fist thing out of her mouth was." It must take longer for bird blood work. Then it dus for cats and dogs" not something a good AV vet would say. But it's ok. She may not know much on her own. But is good at finding out things.

So I got three test that I can share
The first one is Calcium at 7.9
Phosphate 2.7
Potassium 2.2

[Victor]

The ionized test was not taken yet. So calcium test may be off. Am thinking the blood is stealing calcium from the bones or something trying to get the levels up sum. As Pajarita says can happen. I have not looked into this. But I have not found you to be wrong on anything that I have looked into. So I don't see why this would be any different.

[Wolf]

There can be some fairly large fluctuations in the serum calcium levels without there being much of a problem due to the way that they utilize calcium although I am not certain of the range of serum calcium before it indicates a problem the 7.9 seems to me to be about double what it should be. The ionized calcium test is much more accurate as ionized calcium is very closely regulated by the birds body.
I know that based on the significance of UV-B light on calcium absorption in the birds body that I would most definitely acquire a full spectrum light for this bird as well as consider a short term addition of a vitamin d-3 supplement.
Pajarita is much more experienced than I am and may have other ideas of what would be the best way to approach this, but I would also opt for the ionized calcium test as soon as is feasible.

[Victor]

Ok the vet had a name for this. But as I did not post right away. I forgot it. But he is getting deposits in his blood. But it seem that I found this or the vet found it before it got to bad. So changing his diet is not only a good idea. But it seems clear it will also save his life.