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How/why is mating ritual/dance physically unhealthy?

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Re: How/why is mating ritual/dance physically unhealthy?

Postby Wolf » Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:42 am

DanaandPod wrote:Hi. I shared your response on another parrot forum. Because it is very serious and I wanted to help make people aware of what could happen. But, one persons response was:

Ummmm no

It's not because the parrot's heart will burst. That doesn't make sense. It's because if you pet them in ways that encourage breeding behavior it can cause difficulties like egg laying, breeding aggression, etc.

I said I'd be happy to post their response to see what you might have to say. Thanks.


I did not say that this would cause the heart to rupture although I did say that the pressures created by the constantly enlarging gonads could cause something to rupture, the heart is much to fiberous of a mass to rupture. The pressures could cause enough of a shift in internal organs to place enough pressure on the heart to interfere with its beating. Stop to consider that in the male, the testes are roughly the size of a pea and that they grow up to 500 times larger during breeding season taking up most of the cavity that is also occupied by the other organs and there are two of them. All it takes is for them to put pressure on a bend in the intestine to cause a restricted passage of waste which in turn can cause a blockage and you could easily get a ruptured intestine which is fatal. There are several possibilities here and even if they do not progress to the point of being fatal, the pain is nearly unbearable. If anyone doubts this tell them to give their gonads a good hard squeeze.
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Re: How/why is mating ritual/dance physically unhealthy?

Postby Wolf » Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:39 am

Wolf wrote:In and of itself, it is neither bad nor unhealthy. The difficulty lies in the fact that is signifies that the bird is in breeding condition and this is only a bad thing when it occurs out of season. Why? A birds sexual organs are on the inside of their body and when not in breeding condition are small, but during breeding cycle they fill with blood and grow to about100 times larger and keep growing larger if the bird remains in breeding condition past its season. The larger they grow the more pressure they produce inside the bird and push other organs out of place and still keep growing larger until they stop the birds heart or something inside the bird ruptures from the pressure. This process becomes extremely painful and bird have been known to rip open their own bodies in an attempt to stop the pain. It is a very slow and agonizing death.


Here is exactly what I did say, if you wish to pm me with the link or name of the other bird site I will be more than happy to go and look at what they have to say. I know that what I said is what can happen in extreme cases and that most of the time to bird owner ends up giving the bird to a bird sanctuary or rescue where hopefully someone recognizes what is occurring to the bird and give it the help that it needs. The majority of owners will not accept that the constant screaming and extreme aggression in their bird is easy to fix. It is time consuming as it may take more than a single year to fully integrate the birds circadian clock and endocrine systems to their proper function.
I can provide you with the appropriate chapters of two avian medical books and several links to studies that have been done. I can't post the medical texts here as they are in PDF format and this site won't allow me to post them, so if you want to read them include your email address in your pm to me. I can post several links if you wish. as well.
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Re: How/why is mating ritual/dance physically unhealthy?

Postby Pajarita » Wed Dec 17, 2014 2:03 pm

DanaandPod wrote:
Wolf wrote:There are certain things which all come together to initiate the breeding cycle in birds.
1) a mate - in captivity we are the mate
2) a nesting site - this is provided by their cage
3) Climate - We provide a comfortable environment that is conducive to reproduction
4) Food - again we provide an abundance of food
5)Light - This is also provided by us.

Of all of these items the one that is most important is lighting and the second is food. By keeping our birds on a human light schedule and not exposing them to the proper wavelengths of light we allow the breeding cycle to begin but not to shut down. This is why exposure to the twilight periods of dawn and dusk are so important as the wave lengths of light that start and stop this breeding cycle are contained only in the light produced at these times. Food is also important especially in the amount of protein contained in it which is why we don't want to feed a high protein diet to our birds.
Does this help?
Somewhat helpful. But still a little sketchy on my end. So you are saying that the solar light schedule is also helpful in starting and stopping the breeding cycle?


Let's see if I can clarify. Parrots are what is called 'opportunistic' breeders, this means that they only produce sexual hormones that will allow them to breed if certain environmental conditions are present. This is the reason why people who don't know enough about the subject would say that pet birds breed all year round when, in nature, this never happens -only in captivity. There are three main triggers (environmental clues that turn the breeding on or off): photoperiodism (length of day or number of daylight hours), food availability and weather. Ergo, when the days are of a certain length (it varies by species), there is rich and plentiful food and good weather, the birds will breed. Tropical birds, because they live in a very specific environment where the days and nights are almost the same length all year round, use food as their primary trigger and weather as their secondary (although, if you think about it, weather and food kind of go hand in hand because it's the weather that determines whether plants will grow, bloom and fruit). Now, in captivity, food and weather are always good and this presents a big problem for us, parrot keepers, because we would have (and most people do) a bird that produces sexual hormones all year round with the corresponding physical and emotional problems this brings (aggression, screaming, chronic laying -and the eggbinding that could easily result from it, physical discomfort if not outright pain, plucking, self-mutilation, etc). BUT, thankfully, we know (through studies) that ALL birds are photoperiodic and that tropical birds will switch to using photoperiodism as their main trigger if there is a big enough difference between the seasons.

Photoperiodism implies that the bird is able to set its internal clock (circadian cycle) so it's in tune with the seasons (circannual cycle) but, in order for this to happen, the bird needs to be fully (from almost the beginning to the very end) exposed to the two periods of twilight that happen every day (dawn and dusk) because what their endocrine system reacts to is the change in the colors that make up the light at these times. Noon light is white and has the highest UV output, dawn and dusk's lights are redder (and you can tell just by looking at the color of the clouds) and has the lowest UV output (this is because of the way the sun rays refract when they hit the atmosphere -straight down for noon or on an angle when the sun is low on the horizon).

So, when the parrot wakes up with the sunrise in the morning and goes to sleep with the sunset in the evening without been exposed to artificial light, his internal clock sets the circadian cycle at the seasonal number of daylight hours (it works like a stop watch, it starts 'ticking' with the sunrise and stops with the sunset and his body registers that the day had so many hours of light in it). If you, at the same time, decrease protein during the short days, eliminate all nesting places and triggers (like touching them in erogenous zones), the bird will not produce sexual hormones, his sexual organs will shrink and go dormant until the days are longer and the food is richer.

There are other triggers that are specific to each like female budgies (and canaries) reacting to the males songs or vocalizations, cockatiels both male and female to rain or baths, etc. Truth is we don't know enough about all the different triggers of all the different species - there have not been enough studies about them. I'll give you one example that I just learned the other day. Cockatoo breeders would split the jaw bone of the males so the lower beak was 'loose' because this way, they could not bite hard enough to kill the females, a problem they had very, very often. We knew it did not happen in the wild, only in captivity, but nobody knew why until now. Apparently, long days and good food would start a female cockatoo producing sexual hormones but it was her watching the male build the nest that 'finished' the job and, in captivity, as the birds are given nests already made, the males were ready from day one because, as far as they were concerned, their job was done (there was a good nest) but the hens were not ready because they had not watched the male building it so the males, frustrated by the females not wanting to reproduce (and, most likely in acute physical discomfort) would attack them and often kill them.

So, although we don't know ALL the triggers for each species, we do know that keeping them to a solar schedule, not feeding them a lot of protein and reducing it during the 'resting' season (winter), not giving them any nests and not touching them in an birdy inappropriate manner would, at the very least, ensure that you will not end up with a sexually frustrated bird.
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Re: How/why is mating ritual/dance physically unhealthy?

Postby DanaandPod » Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:10 pm

I was on a Facebook group...foreget the exact title...something about Ct parrots...it is a site where they rehome parrots mainly. I was on there looking for a mate for Pod. Actually, the site sort of upsets me because it seems like thes people change parrots like they change their clothes.
I am actually upset right now because of Pod. I cannot ever get anything done at home. He will never let me... he will either attack me or whatever i am doing. He has ripped up my paper work. And, has bit me feet. He is right now clucking and doing his mating dance and vomiting on a toy. I do not know how to get him to settle down. He is growing out of control. I have not read all of Pajoritas response but when i calm down and come back I will. I will surely give you my email. I would love any info. As long as it is in layman terms. As is... I am in over load here trying to convert lesson plans to preschool level for working with kids. lol But, yes... I want to understand and know. But, how long will it take to get him to calm down. He is suddenly driving me absolutely crazy. I feel sorry for him... but it is aggrivating sometimes. Like i tried to make a phone call and he is screaming. Literally sounded like a child in the other room and then comes and pounds on the door with his beak. when i got off the phone and came out... he screamed at me then bit me. It is so rediculous already. i live in prison... but that has always been the way.. that is nothing new. I am just at my max right now. I think i need to step out to get my work done . I do feel sorry for the little guy though. I just want him to be able to calm down.
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Re: How/why is mating ritual/dance physically unhealthy?

Postby DanaandPod » Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:12 pm

Also, there has been a great deal of talk about protein... However, how does someone know exactly how much their bird should be taking in daily?
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Re: How/why is mating ritual/dance physically unhealthy?

Postby DanaandPod » Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:29 pm

It was a closed group on facebook...Parrots and birds for rehoming or sale in Ct...and surrounding areas.
I posted your response and the woman said its rediculous and would like proof. Oh well,,,,I've never gone back and forth posting things before. I just felt it was serious enough and I know there must be many people who dont know about this stuff just like myself so I wanted to post it. It is a horrible thing that could happen to a parrot.
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Re: How/why is mating ritual/dance physically unhealthy?

Postby Wolf » Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:34 pm

I am not positive and don't think that anyone really is but for a maintenance diet I don't believe that it should be more than 12 to17 per cent.
As for how long it will take Pod to reset his internal clock and bring it into proper synchronization with the seasons, I don't know. I depends on how far out of sync it is and how rigidly you follow the appropriate routines with him. It is not a fast process and depending , it can take more than a year, in fact I would not expect any lasting improvement for at least a year.
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Re: How/why is mating ritual/dance physically unhealthy?

Postby marie83 » Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:33 pm

Danaandpod there are sites out there that will work out nutritional content for you when you enter the ingredients and weight of it. That way you can adjust ingredients accordingly to get the right level of protein.

Actually on the same topic does anyone have a rough percentage for carbohydrate and fat ratios please? What I'm feeding atm is correct protein percentage but I'm not sure I have the other ratios right.
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Re: How/why is mating ritual/dance physically unhealthy?

Postby DanaandPod » Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:44 pm

I have a lead for a female Jardine's parrot for Pod!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!So odd I saw a photo on a jardine's parrot site on Face book... then some odd reason I was on Manhattan Craigslist.. and decided to see if there were parrots... and Bam! Same parrot. A female... looking to rehome. Shes a few years older... but Oh my gosh... I am trying not to get my hopes up high... but I live the closest out of others who have inquired... and I just happen to think that I may very well be getting Pod a girlfriend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can't believe it!
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Re: How/why is mating ritual/dance physically unhealthy?

Postby DanaandPod » Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:52 pm

thanks and have fully read the posts here just now... since earlier I was frustrated with you know who... but now that there is a possibility of getting a female parrot... won't i have a whole set of new problems regarding hormone problems????
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