Update on Bean's condition w/ FLD

[bean]

I wanted to update you on Beans condition. I wish I had better news. Despite for the last 60 days, following the instruction provided by all, Beans condition has worsened. Greatly. I had an Ultrasound done on his abdomen yesterday, and his liver is enlarged to where his abdomen is distended. Its massive. His Liver enzymes are well over 2200+, they were 1450 in March. His Uric Acid is 272, up from 237. CK 436 up from 391. Some of the other numbers from the profile are his Glucose 278, not as bad I guess, Phos 1.2, TP 4.3 down from 4.6, K+4.0, and NA+141, same as last test. His weight is up about 5 grams to 575g. He also said there was a ton of fat in his blood again, almost as much as last time. Bean has been living on veggies and grains, and Nutriberries with some Avi Cakes in the PM. Now it makes sense, Bean was never a seed eater. He was never on a seed diet. I assumed he got like this because I fed him something else that contained seed, like pellets. Anyway now I don't know what too do. I feel like the biopsy will kill him out right. W/o the biopsy he will die any way. I have been giving him his meds every day. He is starting to not take his mads from the syringe voluntarily any longer. I don't want to towel and stress him. And he was just added batril, metronidazole, and colchicine. Im at a loss. I have been doing everything I know how, I really thought I would have at least "stopped the bleeding", I did not think his condition would have worsened, let alone drastically. No one can tell me why this is happening to him. First it was I fed him seed. I tried to tell every one I did not feed him seeds. He did not eat enough fresh vegetables, and did not get enough exercise, and for that I am guilty. But not for feeding him seeds. I just want to know how to make my friend better. Would another vet give me different answers, or another plan. Is there a Hepatic Lipidosis specialist somewhere that deals with just this? I have not been able to get any decent quantities of the aloe vera detox into him. I have not found a mixture he likes. I have tried orange, apple, and a V8 100% mixed berry to cut it with, to no avail. Has anyone ever heard of a turn around from these kind of numbers, from aloe detox, or any other treatment? Am I kidding myself, and making Bean miserable, being selfish?

[Wolf]

This is very disheartening news, I really wish that I had some answers for you, but have to defer to Pajarita. I use aloe on a regular basis with all of my birds, but I use it due to the fact that it is an aid to digestion more than for its liver detox effects and I just add it to their water. I put about 3 oz. in about 8 oz. of water. I don't know if that might help or not.
I don't know if anything is going to help at this point, but then I don't have a lot of experience with this. I do have a budgie with liver issues and so far with aloe in his water and milk thistle in his food he seems to be holding his own. But I think that is all he is doing and that despite my best efforts that it is just a matter of time before I am in the same place with him that you are at with Bean. He arrived with the liver condition as well as eating a poor diet consisting of mostly seeds, although the person who gave him to me had started him on eating some vegetables. I have no idea of his age or how long he had the liver disease. It tears me up that I am not able to reverse this condition so I really do understand how you are feeling and wish that I could do more than just saying that I understand.

[Pajarita]

Oh, geez! And you said he was doing sooooo good! Well, I don't know of any fatty liver specialist... have you asked your vet? I tell you one thing though, I did not like the compounded medicine your vet gave him. It might be the best in the world but, personally, I like to know EXACTLY what, how much, what quality, etc and this did not fit my requirements in many ways. First of all, alternative medicine works but you need good quality for it and because the industry is completely unregulated, you get bottles that say they contain this or the other and, in reality, they don't (this has been documented extensively - http://www.zmescience.com/medicine/herb ... led-herbs/ - http://www.salon.com/2015/02/03/walmart ... pplements/). That's why you need the sources that process the plant material adequately and are independently verified as to content and strength. We don't even know what was in the compound, much less if it was good quality or in the right amount. Secondly, putting supplements together is not a matter of mixing a batch of something, you need to know what is the best medium and what goes with what. This compound appeared to have SamE mixed in it but all I've read about it says that you can't crush the tablets or mix it with liquids because it loses efficacy (all the SamE I've seen out there is enteric-coated tablets). Third, if the extracts were alcoholic, they would actually make things worse. I don't know if the doctor is aware of this and compounds liver aids separately or just makes a big batch for every liver damaged animal he treats because dogs and cats can take an extract made with alcohol and it will not damage anything as long as it's in a very low dosage but not birds. Now, the thing is that the active ingredient in milk thistle needs to be extracted through alcohol so, for birds, you need to get the one that has an extra second stage where they take all the alcohol out of it and that's more expensive. Fourth, stress is real bad for sick animals and taking into consideration that captivity is stressful to undomesticated species, when it comes to a sick parrot, you need to avoid it like the plague. But medicating a bird in his beak twice a day is going to be stressful no matter how careful, slow and kind you are so I always prefer medicating in the water when it's possible and, thankfully, when it comes to liver issues, it is.

Now, if you feed nutriberries and avicakes, you are feeding seeds so maybe that's what everybody meant when they told you that this was because of the seeds. Seeds are fine but you need to reduce the protein drastically and you can't do that with a product that doesn't even give you an exact protein level (avicakes, nutriberries, pellets).

Personally, I would not do the biopsy (way too much stress for such a sick bird) and as long as he is not suffering (when you see neurological damage, you know he is at the point of no return), I would keep on trying with diet and meds but you are going to have to steep up the care 100% and change the meds and diet because, obviously, the treatment the vet gave him did not work at all and seems to have made things worse, doesn't it?

[bean]

I said he was eating, and his disposition was sooooo, good. And he was, I cant run a blood panel here.

[Pajarita]

Yes, of course you had no way of knowing. Nobody does, not even avian vets, and that's why we need to rely on blood work. But, for the untrained eye, it is possible that what looks like improvement is actually a sign of the bird getting worse because, for example, parrots on the next to last stage of liver failure eat A LOT and appear to be very, very hungry, especially in the morning (they rush to eat their food as soon as you put it in the bowl) but this is not a good sign because it means that the body is no longer absorbing the nutrients so, although the bird gets a feeling of fullness when its crop is filled up, it doesn't last for long and, a couple of hours later, it feels hungry again. Same thing as to their 'disposition', sick parrots are mild-mannered because they are no longer strong enough to fight, scream, destroy furniture, etc. And, because these are all behaviors that we consider 'unacceptable', it looks like improvement to us - but it's not. One sure way of telling is when you see the parrot going to sleep after a big breakfast. I don't know if Bean does this but it's always a red flag.