Pionus - Constant Regurgitation / Sour crop??

[Wolf]

Can't say that I have ever added it to their food. I started out with just about a quarter of a cap in the water and after they start getting used to it then I started to increase it to about a cap full in the water. It also depends on the size of the water dish, but I think that mine is a capful for 6 ounces of water.

[Pajarita]

The dosage is 3 tablespoons of ACV per gallon of water. You don't need more than that for it to be effective and you don't want to use more, either, because of the acidity factor.

You might have eliminated the triggers but that doesn't mean that she is still not producing sexual hormones. I can assure you she is -and, even after they stop, they still have them in their bloodstream until they all dissipate. It takes months for them to get their endocrine system back on track. The longest it took for me was with a show and breeding lovebird hen that took the entire four seasons.

You don't need to measure gloop. She can eat as much as she wants and she will not gain weight with it. There is no pigging out with it because they will eat to fill the crop and because this food is organic and super high in moisture and fiber, it's impossible for them to become fat on it. I've been using it for 20 years now and I don't have and never have had a single obese bird - I do have two (a tiel and a budgie) that are slightly overweight but these are handicapped little ones that cannot fly or climb so they hardly even walk.

I still recommend you ask your AV to do a fungal culture out of a choanal swab (unless he wants to do it out of crop wash).

[flappybird]

You might have eliminated the triggers but that doesn't mean that she is still not producing sexual hormones. I can assure you she is -and, even after they stop, they still have them in their bloodstream until they all dissipate. It takes months for them to get their endocrine system back on track. The longest it took for me was with a show and breeding lovebird hen that took the entire four seasons.

I guess I just meant to say that she seems to be doing a lot better in that respect.

Luna has started eating her gloop-like foods and fresh stuff like it's the last meal she'll ever have. She eats with such enthusiasm and now nearly cleans the plate in one go. I'm not sure why her sudden change in eating habits, maybe she's just more comfortable? I also started adding tiny sprinkles of sesame seed, chia seeds, hemp seeds, and ground flaxseed to her portions as well, maybe that's what excited her?

In an attempt to get her to eat more legumes/beans, I also soaked a small mix of beans that I had around (black eyed peas, green lentils, split mung beans, split peas, farro, buckwheat groats, regular mung beans) for a few hours, let them sit overnight to begin the sprouting process, and cooked them for 10-15 minutes with water and turmeric the next morning to add to her regular meal. She seems to be really really into that. She'll eat that stuff if it's cooked, can't get her interested in the raw sprouted variety. Maybe I'll try again soon. And no, I'm not giving her tons of that stuff (that might be considered too much protein?) but just adding a bit to her morning portion because there aren't many of those in the first batch of chop/gloop that I made her, which is what I feed her everyday with different stuff added daily.

[Pajarita]

If you are adding all those high protein seeds and beans to her diet, she is still eating too much protein, my dear (especially chia and hemp). And you can't soak beans and then just boil them for 15 minutes. You need to use only white beans and boil them at a high temperature until they are completely soft or you risk what's called kidney bean toxin been present in them.

[flappybird]

Well, she has to have some protein, right? Or else won't she be hungry all day? I was adding the hemp because you said it would be good for her feathers, which need some help. It's really very little of these ingredients, and she has improved significantly (in terms of hormonal behavior) in the last week or two since I changed her diet.

According to every source I've read, if you soak beans and then cook them until they're soft (the soaking just reduces cooking time), that deems them safe so that they have no toxins or are hard to digest.

Pajarita, I really appreciate your advice, but I wish sometimes that you would say something positive! You make me feel like everything I'm doing is wrong, even though in my perception, I feel like I'm doing a lot better than a whole bunch of other parrot owners. Relativity and encouragement go a long way when you're helping somebody...

[Wolf]

Thank you flappybird, you are right that we need to try to do more in the area of encouragement, just as praising our birds helps them, it also helps us humans. I know that I fall on my face in this regards far too often, so thank you for the reminder.
Sometime, especially when trying to help a lot of people on an individual basis, we get focused of trying to get them to do the right things and forget to give them credit for how far they have come, because we are looking at getting it right and that is our mistake as it does interfere with the progress. People need to know that they are doing well, just the same as our birds need it. Thanks again for the reminder, I will do better.

[Pajarita]

I am sorry you feel that I've been negative in my comments. I take it more like a conversation... you say something, I answer. I'll be the first one to admit that I am not one to be giving adults a pat in the back all the time. It's a cultural thing... I wasn't raised to do it and, although I know that Americans need it, I tend to forget all the time.

You ARE doing VERY well! If I didn't think so I would tell you. But I still think that the improvement you see is not so much a reduction in her hormone production but that she is feeling more comfortable in her surroundings. I might be wrong but, in my personal experience, it takes months for a reduction in production significant enough to show a marked difference in a bird that has had its endocrine system screwed up for years.

As to protein intake... yes, they do need protein but, if I remember correctly (and correct me if I am wrong, please) this bird has had consistently too much in the past so it's not as if she is at a point where she needs extra. Hemp is a great source of good quality protein and I use it myself but you are feeding hemp and chia, which are both quite high in protein, as well as seeds, nutriberries, beans and pellets on top of gloop and that's too much. I know you say you use a little but it's not only that a little goes a long way, it's also that their crop is not that big and when it's full, it's full and they stop eating. So, if you offer high protein items all day long, she will fill it up with them and eat too little of the healthier food.

I don't know where you read that you can safely cook beans like that but beans, especially colored beans (and most especially red kidney beans), have a real bad lectin in them and, as far as I know, the only way to eliminate it is to boil them at high heat for, at least, 30 minutes (you can't even simmer them, they need to boil HARD) and, when you soak them, you are softening them WITHOUT heat so when you do cook them afterward for only 15 minutes you are not eliminating the toxin as you should. This is not my opinion, mind you, it's a scientific fact (see this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytohaemagglutinin). I am extremely paranoidal about my birds' diet and, when it comes to beans, I not only don't use any colored ones, I don't even cook them myself because I am afraid I would not do it right, I buy them in cans.

[Wolf]

Wow !!! Thanks for the additional bean info, I was impressed.

[flappybird]

Ok, I'll be more careful about the beans. Also - to clarify something you mentioned, I've completely taken her off that seed mix she was on. I use safflower seeds occasionally as treats for doing things well. I've also quit feeding pellets in her daily meals, and use those as treats sometimes as well. She gets like maybe 3-5 of those a day (and those pellets are the tiny ones, 2-5mm long cylinders). I also haven't fed her nutriberries. I don't even have any. I've heard she likes them, but I didn't think they were a necessary addition to what I've been feeding her, at least not so far. As to her quitting eating when her crop is full, it pretty much never happens, haha. She eats all the time and whenever she sees me making food she gets ridiculously excited.

Anyways - I'm not offended, nor do I need constant pats on the back. I just wanted to point out something that you may or may not have noticed Also, I'm not American, or at least I don't consider myself to be. Born and raised in the Dominican Republic, all of my family is Dominican and most of them are still there. Been in the States 10 years.. but encouragement I would say is also pretty common in hispanic/latin communities... generally a good thing.

[Wolf]

Seeds in themselves are not bad for our birds as they are a portion of their natural diet. The problem with seeds is in the amount of seeds in their captive diets. Generally speaking they are high in fat and protein and not the best source of balanced nutrition, but in smaller amounts are very good and an important part of their diet. I use a seed mix along with a small amount of tree nuts for their evening meal, which I then remove from the cage after the bird goes to sleep for the night or in the morning before dawn while the bird is still asleep.
I know that in the beginning it may appear that there is some contradiction with what is being said, but really there is not. What you need is to establish a balanced diet for your bird, and that is what this is all about.