Advice on Black Headed Caique Health Problems

[GoldenBen]

Hello, I have a BHC who is 3 in December. His health has been up and down since I first bought him last September. He had been through a lot before coming to live with me, including being stolen from the pet shop I worked in, as well as having been bought by people, only to be brought back within a few days.

His first noticeable symptoms were bubbly poop and a strong, sour smell to the faeces in general. My vets at the time told me he had 'slightly elevated clostridium bacteria' but didn't think i should treat him, however after taking him back to the vets again they suggested antibiotics, I think baytril. He seemed to improve but then the old symptoms started to kick back in. Then he had sour smelling poops again for a period of a few months, which I didn't treat straight away, regrettably so now, however I always thought back to the original advice I was given, which was not to treat him, plus the antibiotics didn't seem to have worked anyway. Only nearly a year later did my then vets tell me it was basically nothing to do with clostridium, instead cocci bacteria. My new vets immediately picked up on this and with treatment he has improved.

Unfortunately during an x ray done at the new vets it was found his proventriculus was about 80 % bigger than it should have been, hence my vet suggesting I test for avian borna virus. Two borna virus tests were done, in the netherlands and my vet assured me of their accuracy. Both tests came back negative. Oscars droppings have been nice and coil shaped for around 2 months now, with no noticable smell, although there is often a yellow or green tinge to his urine (Liver or kidney worries) plus his feather condition has improved, noticing much less black patching on his green feathers, but worryingly some of his new feathers still seem to bare stress bars.

The next and only step open to me is to have an endoscopy, which is worrying to me, being such a small bird. However she said he could have an internal blockage or tumor. I feel partly responsible for his health, as I didn't act as quickly as I should have, but also feel misled by my old vets as I was under the impression he had a clostridium infection the whole time. He is now on a fresh, home made mash diet full of grains, beans, fruit and veg. His droppings and feather condition seem to have improved mostly from this change in his diet. I adore this little guy but worry If i leave him he may get worse, but on the other hand worry he may not make it through the endoscopy. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what could have caused his proventriculus to become so enlarged? Could it have been the untreated bacteria itself that caused the enlargement? My vet thinks it's highly unlikely? Any advice would be appreciated

[GitaBooks]

I'm sorry to hear about your bird being sick. Yes, it was your previous vets fault for not informing you that they did not know what it was. No vets are perfect, but I'm glad you found some that seem to know more about parrots. Is there no other way to test for a blockage? With dogs they use things like x-rays.
Blood tests could show if it is any kind of virus or bacteria causing the issue. Have they tested for parasites?

I'm no expert at all, but this may help: http://www.theparrotforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7606

Best of luck!

[liz]

My opinion: just my opinion
I am against invasive testing. I research medication before I will give it and sometimes call my pharmacist if I don't understand my findings. The only time I let them out of my sight is for a surgery (dogs and cats). I have been called over protective but my pet never touches the floor in public and does not get put on an examining table until I see it cleaned in front of me.
In a human I would call it irritable bowel and treat with a stricked diet. If he was mine, that is what I would do and also look into better lighting for at least a week before I put him through any other stuff.

[Wolf]

An endoscopy is probably not the only way to test for an obstruction, but it may be the only means that your vet has available to see what the problem is. I am thinking that there may be some sort of tissue growth that the vet can't tell what it is in order to suggest the proper course of treatment for. In any event, it sounds to me as if this is going to require surgery to correct, if it can be corrected and that this is the reason for the endoscopy.

[Pajarita]

Well, actually, although endoscopies are not the only way to 'see' if there is something wrong with soft tissue (you can also do MRI's and CT's) they are the only way of seeing what, exactly, is there because a tumor is not the same as an aspergilloma, a foreign object or a congenital malformation. Surgery for birds has come a looooong way from been super dangerous. We are now able to give them the right dosage of gas to put them under and have a much better understanding of the physiology and possible side-effects and this is not surgery that would require cutting so, although it is invasive, it's the least invasive you can get.

Now, what I would do is keep at it with the good diet (and make sure it's organic and that you are not feeding any allergens like soy, for example), keep stress to a super-duper minimum (and that will require your imitating some sort of a solar schedule -something difficult to do but necessary in the Northern countries), put him on liver tonics and cleansers (milk thistle, dandelion root, methionine) and keep on checking on the size of the proventriculus periodically and, if the doctor notices any type of deterioration (increase in size, change in shape, off blood work values, etc) then I would definitely do the endoscopy.

[GoldenBen]

Thanks for the replies guys. Just to add his weight always seems to average out at 157 grams, with slight downward and upward fluctuations. He has always looked like a bright bird and is always active, playful to the point that you know he is definitely a caique.

My main issue with my old vets is that I dealt with two different vet surgeons. One was an avian vet, but the other wasn't, however put herself across as knowledgeable. She even said to me once that 'it's poo, what do you expect' on telling her I noticed a strong, sour smell. Laughable really.

I did actually buy quite a lot of natural antibacterials and antivirals for oscar and used them for about 6 weeks, giving him a break now. I used milk thistle and echinacea tinctures in his water, sprinkled turmeric on his food, as well as olive leaf powder. On top of that he still gets organic coconut oil daily, as well as his fresh, homemade food. As my vet thought borna virus was the most likely culprit back then I did painless research into the most potent antiviral foods to add to his diet, in case of the worst case scenario.

Oscar was tested for AGY several times, giardia and other various bacteria's, while there was no sign of aspergilloma nodules anywhere either. I can only hope if there is a tumor or mass that it is operable. Does anyone think bacteria could have caused the enlarged proventriculus? I also had suspicions about heavy metals, as he does have a tendency to put his mouth on brass door handles etc, although I cover them now as much as possible to stop him doing that.

My new vet didn't do new blood as planned on the same day as the x ray, as she felt the issue was in the proventriculus only. I trusted her judgement on that, but honestly think newer blood work would have also been crucial. I'm planning on booking him in on the 2nd of November for the endoscopy. I feel a bit more at ease knowing surgical procedures have come a long way and know I can't just leave him and hope for the best, as i'd never forgive myself otherwise.

[Pajarita]

Make sure the milk thistle extract is non-alcoholic and don't use Echinacea more than 5 days in a row (it's been found that, sometimes, when you do this, it actually backfires and depresses the immune system).

The 'knowledgeable' vet that gave you that flippant answer about the poop knows nothing about birds. Birds poop don't really smell when the bird is healthy.

I am not big on olive leaf... I would much rather use oregano and garlic as antibacterials. I also never feed my birds coconut oil. I don't think it's healthy for them... I don't give them any solid 'oils' (they are not really oils, they are fat), not even red palm.