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Healthy Raw Diet for Parrots Sprouting

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Re: Healthy Raw Diet for Parrots Sprouting

Postby Leanna » Mon Nov 30, 2015 4:31 pm

Wolf wrote:First things first, Leanna has Pm me and I am awaiting her reply to me, That will be taken care of differently, as moderator. I only mention it because it was already brought up on the forum.
Now, with that out of the way, this reply is not moderator, this is me and some, not all of my thoughts. Seagoatdeb, Your choice of words should probably be looked at as Pajarita's statement concerning Celiacs Disease or non celiac gluten sensitivity is not incorrect as shown in your own link there have indeed been studies refuting the existence of this horrible condition, and that is all that she said about it. Perhaps she could have also stated that there are other studies that support the existence of this disease, but she did not, but that does not make her statement incorrect.
Beyond this, I do not know what to think about this condition as of yet. I am sure that my opinion is going to go through multiple changes over time. Why ? My newest neighbors wife and child are affected by at least gluten sensitivity, which I only recently became aware of as I have been asked to pick him up after school since the parents jobs are preventing them from being able to do this themselves and this means that he eats once a day here with us. So I will be looking into this more closely, both scientifically and from personal observations.



I will say something about this, since you have mentioned it, although I do not believe we should be discussing this in a Parrot Forum. But you said some things that need to be clarified. Gluten sensitivity is not a "disease" It is a reaction. An allergy is when the reaction is fairly immediate, A Intollerance or sensitivity is when the reaction takes longer. Wheat has many components in it that we may be having a reaction to both allergic and intolerant. The common blood test used look for two antibodies to diagnose Gluten problems. There is a more expensive tests that look for antibodies in your blood to other components in the gluten and in other parts of the wheat. They are not always used because they are more expensive, so if your doctor wont use them, or your insurance wont pay, you need to go on a foodmap diet where you remove all foods including all the gluten ones as they are foodmaps too, to see if you start to feel better. Then you must slowly add some in. This is a long process you are very deprived, and expensive as well. If you are lucky enough to get the test that looks for all antibodies to wheat and you show as having some antibodies to ones that would not show on the simple test, then you go off wheat and all other foods that contain the component the antibody was trying to fight. I had to go through over 20 years on highly restrictive diets untill, finally I found a doctor and financing, and could have the Array 3 from Cyrex Laboratories. Once I was able to only take out the foods that contained components my body could not handle I was able to eat many more foods and be healthy. So I had lab proof and a docotors diagnosis. There is no guess work here. My body has the antiboides to show it is intolerant and allergic. Cold hard proof. Insurance companies usually wont pay for the expensive test and promote all research that uses only cheap tests. Now this should not really be discussed here but I made this post to show how offensive the links Pajarita posted and her comment to those of use who suffered through this. All studies that say it doesnt exist want you to go on a restrictive food map diet or other restrictive diet rather than finding out what you are really reacting too. This is why medical comments should not be made here because it is a Parrot Forum. I would be happy to argue non celiac sensitivity in any forum there for this purpose.
'
Leanna
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Re: Healthy Raw Diet for Parrots Sprouting

Postby Leanna » Mon Nov 30, 2015 4:38 pm

Pajarita wrote:
seagoatdeb wrote:
Pajarita wrote:
As to the gluten non-celiac sensitivity, there are studies that seem to prove that, in reality, it might not even exist.


Your statement is incorrect. You will need to research a lot better to understand the problem with Gluten. I will refer you to this link about proper testing and how dangerous your statement is to health. But you will need a lot more study to understand it. I have researched for a massive amount of time for the health of my family. My husband has Celiac disease and measured easily on the simple blood test. My daughter does not measure on the simple test and going off gluten has changed her life. I dont seem to have any gluten problems myself, but both my daughter and I have the potato allergy. I can tell you it took a long time, with my daughter sufferring terribly, until she went off gluten, because of this kind of misinformation. http://chriskresser.com/3-reasons-glute ... c-disease/


Seagoat, I wasn't referring to Celiac disease, I was referring to gluten sensitivity. And, although Kresser and others swear by it, there are several sources that state that, although they don't deny some people do have symptoms, they might not be due to actual gluten sensitivity but to other causes (they mention IBS, allergy to common ingredients mixed with flour like soy, and something called FODMAP) - see these:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... -for-real/
http://www.realclearscience.com/blog/20 ... exist.html
http://www.medicinenet.com/nonceliac_gl ... /page2.htm
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-david- ... 26584.html

I did not state it does not exist, I simply stated that there is doubt among the scientific community - and, as you can see by the links provided, it wasn't an irresponsible statement made off the top of my head. As to the possibility of parrots having it, on that I am giving my personal opinion and it is that I highly doubt it because I've been feeding it to mine for over 20 years with no consequence to their health (and I am not talking about 2 or 3 parrots, I am talking in the hundreds and, if you go by all the parrots that eat pellets made with wheat, you will find that there are thousands) and they do eat wheat in the wild (and I know this because I've seen them doing it with my own two eyes and because the wheat growers in my country hate them for the destruction of their crops).


Your links are offensive to me. They are not about Healthy Raw Diet for Parrots sprouting in any way. They are about a position on a human intolerance. Can you please have the eyes to see that I want to talk about parrots and not deal with your Medical Research unless you are a doctor or Scientest and it is in an appropriate Forum. Please
Leanna
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Re: Healthy Raw Diet for Parrots Sprouting

Postby Leanna » Mon Nov 30, 2015 5:24 pm

I have been trying to look at your pm Wolf for hours. I tried two different computers and my cell phone, so the forum is having problems. The user control panel also doesnt work you can search and post but that is it.
Leanna
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Re: Healthy Raw Diet for Parrots Sprouting

Postby marie83 » Mon Nov 30, 2015 5:26 pm

Leanna, how can the links possible be offensive? It wasn't Pajarita who even brought up the subject of celiac or sensitivities yet your going off one because she wanted to show you exactly what she meant and why?

It's you who is making a big deal out of it yet other people can't mention it? It's called discussing things and quite a lot of posts on here go off track so if this makes you unhappy....
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Re: Healthy Raw Diet for Parrots Sprouting

Postby Leanna » Mon Nov 30, 2015 5:49 pm

marie83 wrote:Leanna, how can the links possible be offensive? It wasn't Pajarita who even brought up the subject of celiac or sensitivities yet your going off one because she wanted to show you exactly what she meant and why?

It's you who is making a big deal out of it yet other people can't mention it? It's called discussing things and quite a lot of posts on here go off track so if this makes you unhappy....


I will explain. I have read the comments and it was brought up by someone who said they just do not feed wheat because so many people have gluten sensitivities so have decided not to chance it. That is fine for someone to have that opinion and it is fine for someone to think feeding wheat is fine.
Where it goes off track is when Pajarita decides to discredit someones post with human medical information instead of just saying why she feeds wheat and thinks its okay. When Pajarita sees she has upset people who have had to deal with serious problems due to gluten. She still made the post with all the links , knowing that people had experienced suffering and that is when it become offensive.
She can mention it if this forum allows that, but I will still find it offensive because I have suffered because of the popularization and news media picking up the story wich has fueled the insurance companies to refuse to pay for the test which looks at all the antibodies created from wheat sensitivity and can give you a cold hard diagnosis.

Also, can you seriously tell me, if you for example, had suffered with some form of allergy for years and had researched it extensively and decided you would not feed it to your birds be happy, if someone, a lay person, posted in a Parot Forum that your allergy may not exist. Would you seriously be just fine about that if the person continued to post links like that?
Leanna
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Gender: This parrot forum member is female
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Re: Healthy Raw Diet for Parrots Sprouting

Postby seagoatdeb » Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:55 pm

Pajarita wrote:
seagoatdeb wrote:
Pajarita wrote:
As to the gluten non-celiac sensitivity, there are studies that seem to prove that, in reality, it might not even exist.


Your statement is incorrect. You will need to research a lot better to understand the problem with Gluten. I will refer you to this link about proper testing and how dangerous your statement is to health. But you will need a lot more study to understand it. I have researched for a massive amount of time for the health of my family. My husband has Celiac disease and measured easily on the simple blood test. My daughter does not measure on the simple test and going off gluten has changed her life. I dont seem to have any gluten problems myself, but both my daughter and I have the potato allergy. I can tell you it took a long time, with my daughter sufferring terribly, until she went off gluten, because of this kind of misinformation. http://chriskresser.com/3-reasons-glute ... c-disease/


Seagoat, I wasn't referring to Celiac disease, I was referring to gluten sensitivity. And, although Kresser and others swear by it, there are several sources that state that, although they don't deny some people do have symptoms, they might not be due to actual gluten sensitivity but to other causes (they mention IBS, allergy to common ingredients mixed with flour like soy, and something called FODMAP) - see these:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... -for-real/
http://www.realclearscience.com/blog/20 ... exist.html
http://www.medicinenet.com/nonceliac_gl ... /page2.htm
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-david- ... 26584.html

I did not state it does not exist, I simply stated that there is doubt among the scientific community - and, as you can see by the links provided, it wasn't an irresponsible statement made off the top of my head. As to the possibility of parrots having it, on that I am giving my personal opinion and it is that I highly doubt it because I've been feeding it to mine for over 20 years with no consequence to their health (and I am not talking about 2 or 3 parrots, I am talking in the hundreds and, if you go by all the parrots that eat pellets made with wheat, you will find that there are thousands) and they do eat wheat in the wild (and I know this because I've seen them doing it with my own two eyes and because the wheat growers in my country hate them for the destruction of their crops).


Those links you posted are all sensationalized news report based on one persons testing. The main body of experts know that if you have the antibodies in your blood you are sensitive period. There is no reason for your body to make antibodys against an invader unless it is an enemy to your system. I know gluten sensitivity is real, but to get a lab, proven diagnosis they must find the appropriate antibodies by doing the appropriate tests to look for them. My daughters blood test turned out negative but they were ony looking for the two antibodies for Celiac. So believing she was fine with Wheat, Rye and Barley she went on eating for a while getting worse and worse, and it caused horrible chronic debilitating pain. Fianlly getting a diagnosis was life changing for her. that when i began my extensive research on Gluten.
In my case, I have had bouts of getting sick with scratchy sore throat, sneezing, runny nose, hives, achy muscles. I went on a raw vegan diet and all my symptoms went away, and I got healthy. I started eating some cooked food again and my syptoms returned. My symptoms were not classic celiac so I never got tested for it. I went gluten free, but it never helped. In fact I felt sicker. I avoided the food maps group but again, got sicker. Fianlly, some events came together for me to find out what the problem was. I had a huge harvest of potato, and so we had a meal of potatos. My husband peeled the potatoes.....duh I never peeled because I would get a rash on my hands from peeling potatoes. it never dawned on me that was a sign of potato alergy. While the potaoes were boiling I had an asthma attack...duh....stll didnt connect the dots. I ate a large plate of these fresh potatoes, so yummy, such a comfort food. Next morning my left eyelid was all swollen up and I felt like I was getting a cold, runny nose,sore throat, stufffed up, not hungry. I decided to fry up a bunch of those yummy potatoes and a few hours later, my other eylid became swollen up and my lips became swollen too. I became cold, my blood pressure shot down and so did my heart rate, I began to pass out and put my head between my legs. Resistent to hospitals, since I had been rushed there with anaphlactic reaction twice already, and I hate....absolutely hate hospitals.... I asked my unwilling hubby to make coffee and chugged back a few cups. Finally I didnt feel faint, just sleepy and so I went to bed. it took me a week to get over the reaction but my doctor was able to order a test looking specifically for antibodies for the alergens in potatoes. Thank heavens I finally found out. My story isnt about gluten, but it is to give you my account of what a person goes through, finding out what is causing their reactions. So it is hard and painfull to see someone posting what I consider misinformation when I also witnessed my daughter suffering due to celiac sensitivity. My decision to not feed gluten to my birds is based on years of research but you are welcome to use wheat. You may even be right, it wont affect parrots, but I cant chance it. I have to tell you I cried when I followed your links to see more of the sensationalized reports and I know personally how much suffering it caused. My parrots will not suffer not having gluten there are plenty of other nutrtion alternatives, and I am not telling you that you have to not feed wheat, feed it all you want. But please stop bringing up these upsetting links, that dont have anything to do with parrots. I have never told you what you have to feed. I have never told you not to feed wheat. I simply stated what I dont feed and why.....you let many other peoples coments go by when they choose not to feed something,you feed, why cant you let mine go by. It was innocently made, nothing against you. So again, I am asking please.
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seagoatdeb
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Re: Healthy Raw Diet for Parrots Sprouting

Postby Wolf » Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:01 am

People is any of this really needed? First of all the gluten sensitivity ( a human condition) was not brought up by Pajarita. Pajarita's link about gluten sensitivity was in response to the party bringing up the subject and was only used as support that this condition does not exist in birds as far as is known.
Leanna, I am so sorry that you have this condition but there was in no way any attack on you and I am sorry that you find the sharing of information that you don't agree with to be offensive.
Seagoatdeb you brought this whole gluten thing up and then are offended when someone disagrees with you? This is not right.

The only one that has even began to exhibit a reasonable and rationale approach to this is Marie83.
We are supposed to be adults here and yet we are acting like spoiled little brats. I am sorry that the PM function has been down, this was the first I knew of it but regardless you guys could not stop you spiteful bickering on the forum so that this could be addressed properly.
Guys, come on, you are better than this or you can be. Yes I know how it feels to be told that your pain, or condition is not real or that it is just a product of your own mind. I get this told to me every three months when I go to the doctors. Am I offended? No, I am not, why should I be? My doctor may or may not be right but this in no way serves to make my life any less painful.
We don't have to act this way and information is just information and there are at least two sides to every issue. If one side is going to be presented then the other side has just as much right to be presented whether it is popular or not. If you are going to bring up something that you may be offended by the opposing point of view then just don't bring it up. In this manner it is very easy to not need to be offended. Every time someone says a thing that we disagree with we can choose to be offended or not it is our choice ultimately on whether we choose to be offended or not.
Absolutely, none of this display was necessary or needed and for sure did not need to be played out here on the forum. There are better ways of dealing with these things. Please respect each other or failing that respect yourself enough to refrain from this type of pettiness, I personally find this to be demeaning and it has a diminishing effect on each of us and that is offensive. Please grow up.
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Re: Healthy Raw Diet for Parrots Sprouting

Postby seagoatdeb » Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:18 am

My own suffering did not bother me, if anyone said it did not exist but it is my daughters sufferng I witnessed that breaks my heart to see someone say it doesnt exist. I certainly was not offended, are you mixing up what Leanna felt with me? I wont post anymore though about gluten and I hope no one else does either. Wolf I am sorry to hear your doctor is thinking your pain doesnt realy exist, because that means he is being no help to your pain. This may be redundant and something you have already explored, but could it be an allergy?. I had a lot of pain with my potato alergy and my daughter was really in pain with both gluten and potato. I hope it gets better.
Last edited by seagoatdeb on Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Healthy Raw Diet for Parrots Sprouting

Postby seagoatdeb » Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:28 am

I did use the alert the forum administrator function to report the problem with the pm panel and the user control panel.
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Re: Healthy Raw Diet for Parrots Sprouting

Postby Leanna » Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:38 am

I dont agree with your take on it at all wolf but I will obey the moderator and not post.
Leanna
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