Healthy Raw Diet for Parrots Sprouting

[marie83]

Leanna, I see no reason why someone may not back up their opinion with evidence or what they deem as evidence.

I have plenty of allergies- even to my own pets, no I would not take offence if someone said it was all in my head, especially if they showed me why they were of that opinion. trust me I've been told plenty of times I'm an absolute idiot (that's the polite version) for not getting rid of my pets. Some people understand why I wouldn't but practically nobody understands why I continue to work with them for my job. Nobody is calling you and idiot Leanna or mocking your illness.

[Greg]

I am a member of many forums and I have seen it all over the years. My take on the gluten wars, if I am allowed to have my 2 cents. Here is what I see.

Pajarita- Bad taste to use an example like that and start the war, and how could so many not see that? To continue to post bad taste links, poor judgment, of course that would incite more. But she did stick to explaining her position.

Leanna- insulted that her health problems and diagnosis are said they might not exist. Thats understandable. More patience needed. pms get fixed. Theres always another day.

Marie 83-Taking her jabs at Leanna, always good to jab a person who is upset, that will be sure to make them more upset. The funniest one is the one after Leanna says she will not post, she would not be upset if her medical condition was posted not to exist. Me thinks thou protest too much.

Seagoatdeb- whoops explained why you do something. Now they want to say you started it. Of the whole bunch of you characters this one stuck to explaining her point of view all along. Kept her cool when being called a spoiled brat, and wrongly accused of being offended when she clearly said how she felt all along. Naive. Deck was stacked against you, should have seen that the old members stick together, lost causes.

Wolf- The worst of the bunch. Launched into name calling. Spoiled brats. Another one who never gets offended. Righto. Leanna called him the moderator. Hmmm Licensed to call names. Clearly Pajaritas champion partner in bad taste and long time comraderie.

None of you get a gold star.

Thats my 2 cents. Read it all though. Entertaining to say the least. My reason for being here was to read the post on Diet, but found so much more. Thanks for the Diet post, I have copied it onto my computer, good stuff, in case my honesty is not welcome in the Gluten Wars. I now bid you adieu. Off to learn more info about parrots, or maybe more war stories in this forum. This might be the most interesting forum yet.

[Wolf]

While I do not agree with your take on this, you are welcome to your opinion, especially since it was insisted on being put here by those who would not wait to discuss it in a more appropriate setting. And I did indeed say that everyone was acting like spoiled brats, perhaps that is not politically correct, but that does not make it any less true.
All of the people involved other than Marie83 have used human studies to back their statements on this as well as many other topics. Since there is no evidence that I have found that remotely suggests that parrots have an allergy to wheat, I really fail to see why it was even brought up in the first place. All of these things are truly moot points.
The simple truth in this particular instance is that we have three people debating two different ways of trying to do right in supplying good nutrition to their birds and both sharing what they know. Both of these ways have their merits and both have their drawbacks and whether Pajarita's link was or was not tasteless is not the point, what is the point is that the one side chooses to be offended and wants to win this debate by having me to shut the other side up through censorship, which is just not going to happen. Both methods are good and both methods have their place in the area of providing good nutrition and that is what I want them to see, that none of this petty bickering is the right way to approach this, none of this is called for. There is a better way.
Yes, I am the moderator and all of this will be brought to the owner of the forum, Michael, for his take on this and whatever he decides is to be done about it will be done. But my purpose is to bring this bickering to an end and not to practice censorship because someone disagrees with someone else. I am sorry for a great many things regarding this, beginning with the fact that as soon as this started I asked the parties involved to PM me directly and to not continue this on the open forum, where it has no place, but no one listened . I am sorry that I accepted their decision to carry this further on the open forum, I am sorry that I feel like everyone is acting like spoiled brats and insisting that they have the only true and correct way of dealing with parrot nutrition. I am sorry that Leanna has this condition and that she feels attacked, but the truth is that no one knew of this when this started so no one could have been attacking her about this. I am sorry that I gave voice that I feel that we are acting out like spoiled brats and that I don't know of a more appropriate way to put it. Yes, I may very well be the worst of the bunch because of my spoiled brat comment, but I will not defend it, nor will I detract it as I know of no better way of putting it. I also will simply not engage in censorship. Thus the only real solution is for everyone to back up into their respective corners, take a good hard look at this, accept that they are all right and they are all wrong, then to come back out and admit to the error of turning this into something that should never have been and either talk about it like adults or drop the matter entirely and get back onto the business at hand, Parrots and their well being.
Now with that being said, if anyone has more to say about this then unless you wish to comment about the way that I am handling this save it for when the PM function is back up and we can get together with Michael. I have already let him know about the PM issue and as soon as it is repaired I will bring this to his attention and do what ever he requests me to do about this. And since it appears that very shortly I will be accused of favoritism, I will also request that Michael add at least one maybe two other moderators.
That is the last thing that I have to say until such time as I can discuss this with Michael.

[marie83]

I don't feel I have taken a jab at anyone Greg. I think I perhaps chose to word things in a way that wasn't the best way to put it.

I do however feel the whole thing is being blown out of proportion. I don't feel the links posted were in bad taste, I feel it was Pajarita trying to explain why she felt it was a possibility which she is perfectly entitled to do given her original comment caused offence unnecessarily. I've been a member of this forum for a while, longer than most people who come here often now and whilst myself and Pajarita don't always see eye to eye on everything I also think she is a nice person who doesn't deliberately go out of her way to upset people.

Neither have I commented whether or not I believe gluten intolerance is a "real" thing or not or posted any links. Some people clearly feel they do better without it in their diets and I'm glad for those it works for.

The links Pajarita posted were perhaps not the best examples. I think a much better response in the circumstances would have been to suggest some alternate studies rather than take offence. After all we are all here to help each other learn new things right?

[Pajarita]

I do think that this argument has been blown out of proportion and it's best to leave it as it is. I never meant to offend anybody or even suggest that their problems were all in their heads, I simply remember reading about the gluten controversy and posted the links I found for the subject when accused of not doing any research. They seemed to come from reputable sources (doctors and such) so I had no reason to believe they were not credible. I used to be but I am no longer allergic or sensitive to anything and, believe or not, nobody in my family is but I can imagine that been sick for years and years and not having people believe it must be REAL hard! So I do think that both Seagoat and Leanna had reason to take the whole argument personally although, of course, nobody knew of their reasons until they explained. And I do think that, although Greg might not have meant it that way, his post just added fuel to the fire while Marie tried to make things better. I also did not feel that Wolf was wrong in what he said - and I am not saying this because he is 'my champion' or I his. I say it because, as moderator, he was right in scolding everybody (including me).

As far as I am concerned, everybody can feed their birds whatever they feel it's best for them. I am here to share what I learned through my personal experience and research. Period. And I hope we can get into nice debates without having issues all the time. Discussing and analyzing different points of view and sharing links is how one learns best so it would be a shame if we cannot do that - especially in the diet section, which is a subject where we are all flying blind because nobody has any real guidelines about it.

Now, going back to the subject. Seagoat, I think it would be useful if you added measurements and preparation methods to your list of ingredients (like two cups or so many ounces of this or that, and soaked for 12 hours in hot water, your method of sprouting or whatever) so people can see the way you have found best to prepare it. Also, if you could mention how often you use different ingredients - like you listed collard greens but then you explained that you don't use them that often, that kind of thing.

[Greg]

I did not expect to run into this, and this was not handled well by the moderator so I had to comment. I tried to lighten the mood while giving my "outsider" take on it. Pajarita should have taken her comment down and reposted without the elements that upset members. There would have been no problem after that. That is not censorship, that is manners. Wolf should have made sure that happened. His failure to act and then his "after the party ended" comments were in bad form. Where did you get the idea that any links are okay to post? Ensuring good taste is used in the manner of post is not censorship.

I shoud not have to run into this when I go to look at a fourm for parrot diet. This is not the fault of the members. Pajarita would not be so "terse" if she wasnt trained into it every day. So many newer members woudnt be treated rudely for innocent comments by older members, mostly Pajarita. Post after post just sitting there for me to see. If you want a group of people that is only older members, thats the way to go. The treatment of the member called Toggsy, is shamefull. If you want to help parrots, treat the new members well, its that simple.

[Wolf]

Well, I appreciate your comments on my handling of this issue and I will take them under advisement. I don't think that I was wrong in anything that I said, but I could be wrong about that. I do think that if anyone wishes to take me to task on this that it would be better for them to open a new topic in the general and off topic and let anyone who wishes to comment on my course of action to discuss it there instead of here so that this thread can get back to what it was intended to be. The other place to deal with this properly would be to use the PM function to talk to me directly, but the truth of the matter is that I would really prefer it to be in the open forum in the appropriate place. My reason for this preference is because until such time that Michael chooses to install another moderator , I am what we have and although I may not be the best, I am open to your criticisms on my behaviors and my only desire is to be fair to each and every member of this forum.

[seagoatdeb]

Now, going back to the subject. Seagoat, I think it would be useful if you added measurements and preparation methods to your list of ingredients (like two cups or so many ounces of this or that, and soaked for 12 hours in hot water, your method of sprouting or whatever) so people can see the way you have found best to prepare it. Also, if you could mention how often you use different ingredients - like you listed collard greens but then you explained that you don't use them that often, that kind of thing.

I am not the one who should or can give measurements, because I do not freeze chops, I make fresh daily for only two birds, and at the most refridgerate extras for up to three days. I also eat mostly raw, so often what they eat in the base is what I have sprouted for me. If I am making a sprouted chia seed and hemp smoothie for example, thats what will be in their base. I believe in simple mixes and often rotations. I rotate everything but I rotate all greens the most. For example collard greens and kale are both members of the brassica family, and I never feed the leaves of brassicas more than twice a week, usually only once a week. However, both brocolli and cauliflower are part of the flower part of the brassica and they contain much less of the brassica toxins, so are safer to feed more often. Because Gaugan loves brocolli, and she is a picky eater, it is the brassica I use the most.

I am in Jason Creans facebook group and there are many there who freeze large batches. I have posted enough for anyone to get started. As I have mentioned before, the raw whole food diet is very similar to your gloop, except instead of cooked foods, raw foods are used, raw, sprouted or soaked. So any gloop recipe would work with the substitution of raw sprouted or soaked seeds and nuts or sprouted grains instead of the cooked component. No one has to be 100 percent raw either, I am not. I give mine sweetpotatoes from my garden that I have cooked up for them. I also have to cook most beans that are not good to sprout for them. Beans and lentils are high protein so I use them more sparingly.

[seagoatdeb]

The simple truth in this particular instance is that we have three people debating two different ways of trying to do right in supplying good nutrition to their birds and both sharing what they know. Both of these ways have their merits and both have their drawbacks and whether Pajarita's link was or was not tasteless is not the point, what is the point is that the one side chooses to be offended and wants to win this debate by having me to shut the other side up through censorship, which is just not going to happen. Both methods are good and both methods have their place in the area of providing good nutrition and that is what I want them to see, that none of this petty bickering is the right way to approach this, none of this is called for. There is a better way.

Wolf I do have to coment about this part of the post you made. What the heck are you talking about? There is no one trying to censor anyone. There were two people objecting to one human we believe (faulty) medical viewpoint that was used to illustrate a point.

No one said the point was wrong, no one called for censorship of the point. only the references to gluten sensitivity may not exist in humans was objected to.....Pajaritas point was that she believes feeding wheat is fine and no one objected to that. In fact, Pajarita could be right and I did say that.
Pajarita also did not say that it was wrong for us to not use wheat, she was just saying she believed it was safe.
Part of this was the failure of the pm system to work, so no one could pm you. I cannot understand your take on this. Where did you pull this viewpoint from? I just dont get it, and I have tried to get it. I have reread everything again and again.

[Leanna]

The simple truth in this particular instance is that we have three people debating two different ways of trying to do right in supplying good nutrition to their birds and both sharing what they know. Both of these ways have their merits and both have their drawbacks and whether Pajarita's link was or was not tasteless is not the point, what is the point is that the one side chooses to be offended and wants to win this debate by having me to shut the other side up through censorship, which is just not going to happen. Both methods are good and both methods have their place in the area of providing good nutrition and that is what I want them to see, that none of this petty bickering is the right way to approach this, none of this is called for. There is a better way.

Wolf I do have to coment about this part of the post you made. What the heck are you talking about? There is no one trying to censor anyone. There were two people objecting to one human we believe (faulty) medical viewpoint that was used to illustrate a point.

No one said the point was wrong, no one called for censorship of the point. only the references to gluten sensitivity may not exist in humans was objected to.....Pajaritas point was that she believes feeding wheat is fine and no one objected to that. In fact, Pajarita could be right and I did say that.
Pajarita also did not say that it was wrong for us to not use wheat, she was just saying she believed it was safe.
Part of this was the failure of the pm system to work, so no one could pm you. I cannot understand your take on this. Where did you pull this viewpoint from? I just dont get it, and I have tried to get it. I have reread everything again and again.

Yes thank you Seagoatdeb, exactly.