high quality seed mix

[Greg]

I have never roasted a nut for my parrrots and never had a problem.

[Wolf]

I really do not understand this thing that is starting, a couple of you are dismissing Pajaritas links to studies that she posts to support her point of view, because these studies were not done on parrots, while at the same time you post other links to support your point of view and these studies also were not done on parrots. It appears that you think that your non parrot studies are somehow more valid than her non parrot studies. Does this seem right?

I would think that if yours are valid than so are hers.

[Pajarita]

I don't take it personally, I have come to expect this from both Seagoatdeb and Greg - they just like to argue against everything I post. But that's OK, I don't mind it at all... keeps my mind agile and my info current as I review it every time they question it.

Here is more information about nuts, raw or roasted and the fats they both contain and, as you can see, roasted is not significantly less healthful than raw (it's only vit B that suffers).
http://www.nutsforlife.com.au/frequentl ... -roasting/

As to aspergillus not been common in parrots, you are correct that it's not when we are talking about a healthy, stress-free parrot that is exposed to the ubiquitous aspergillus presence in nature but we are talking about regularly eating something that could have a higher level of aflatoxin and that is a completely different situation. See this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aflatoxin - As you can see, tree nuts are one of the most common sources and, for another, in reality, when an avian vet diagnoses liver malfunction, unless the good doctor did a biopsy of the liver (a very rare diagnostic tool in a sick parrot), it doesn't really know if the disease is only from eating too much protein or a combination of too much protein and aflatoxin poisoning. I had one that died from it (it was a postmortem diagnosis from the necropsy) and this fact added to my more than normal in-depth knowledge of it from my working with grains and the USDA specs and tests required for shipping it, it made me extra careful.

I am not telling you to change what you feed your parrots. I was asked a question and I answered it. When my reply and my links were again questioned, I provided you with more information - not my opinion but actual links from reputable independent sources. I do a very thorough research on everything I feed or not feed my animals and all I can do is share my research with you... whether you choose to accept the research or not is up to you but that doesn't change the validity of it.

[seagoatdeb]

:lol: I don't take it personally, I have come to expect this from both Seagoatdeb and Greg - they just like to argue against everything I post. But that's OK, I don't mind it at all... keeps my mind agile and my info current as I review it every time they question it.

Here is more information about nuts, raw or roasted and the fats they both contain and, as you can see, roasted is not significantly less healthful than raw (it's only vit B that suffers).
http://www.nutsforlife.com.au/frequentl ... -roasting/

As to aspergillus not been common in parrots, you are correct that it's not when we are talking about a healthy, stress-free parrot that is exposed to the ubiquitous aspergillus presence in nature but we are talking about regularly eating something that could have a higher level of aflatoxin and that is a completely different situation. See this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aflatoxin - As you can see, tree nuts are one of the most common sources and, for another, in reality, when an avian vet diagnoses liver malfunction, unless the good doctor did a biopsy of the liver (a very rare diagnostic tool in a sick parrot), it doesn't really know if the disease is only from eating too much protein or a combination of too much protein and aflatoxin poisoning. I had one that died from it (it was a postmortem diagnosis from the necropsy) and this fact added to my more than normal in-depth knowledge of it from my working with grains and the USDA specs and tests required for shipping it, it made me extra careful.

I am not telling you to change what you feed your parrots. I was asked a question and I answered it. When my reply and my links were again questioned, I provided you with more information - not my opinion but actual links from reputable independent sources. I do a very thorough research on everything I feed or not feed my animals and all I can do is share my research with you... whether you choose to accept the research or not is up to you but that doesn't change the validity of it.

I dont take it personally either when Pajarita argues against what I post. I am always researching. She is right that it does lead to doing more research and benefits us all.

[Wolf]

I am not asking about how either of you are taking it or how you relate to each other. I am simply asking why the one uses the argument that the others study was not done on parrots while posting the same type of studies that are also not done on parrots. If both are posting links to studies that are not done on parrots, why is the statement that the others link was to a study that was not done on parrot even there. I don't understand this, so since I must be missing something I am asking about it.

[seagoatdeb]

I am not asking about how either of you are taking it or how you relate to each other. I am simply asking why the one uses the argument that the others study was not done on parrots while posting the same type of studies that are also not done on parrots. If both are posting links to studies that are not done on parrots, why is the statement that the others link was to a study that was not done on parrot even there. I don't understand this, so since I must be missing something I am asking about it.

There will always be links to studies not done on parrots that we need to use since there are simply not enough studies done on parrots. Maybe we all need to explain how our links are relevant to our post better so you can understand. I have said mine were for general information on a topic when they were and then the intention is to provide more info for everyone. I will sumarize that may lead to better understanding for you.

Currently we are discussing two things. One is stress, and how it affects parrots and can affect them in the future. Some have the position that stress can have effects on parrots for the rest of there lives and will require special consideration. Most of us agree on that, but some of us see that as rare with baby birds, and believe that with careful attention we can help our parrot to become less stressed, not by avoiding but by desensitizing and some see it as avoiding the stress. Regaurding Finch studies and their application to parrots, they can show the effect of stress hormones on finches, they dont take into account the greater intelligence of parrots and their abilities to bond with their owners. It is still interesting information though and it is nice to see any research done that may lead to a better understanding of birds.

The second is mold problems with nuts, especially aspergillis. One member roasts to avoid this. Two members think is is a rare problem, and the benefits of raw nuts outweighs the risks. It is fairly rare, but it is something to be aware of. I am concerned myself with the toxic affect of rancidity in nuts that can only occur in roasted nuts. With Pajaritas fresh roasting that would never occur, but with the purchase of roasted nuts that are older it can be a problem. Pajarita has made a point that there are no studies done on the livers of parrots to see if aspergillis played a part, so aspergillis could be more of a problem than we now see. We have all brought out valid points and view points.

Pajarita makes point of saying that studies are better than experience, because experience is subjective. There is some truth to that. I believe since so few studies are done on parrots and we must look at studies done on finches or humans, sometimes our personal experiece is better than studies.

Wolf, since you have not make it clear what comment, I will have to guess, so it may have been because some studies that apply to all birds are relevant for parrots, but some that dont take their differences into account may not be able to be applied to parrots. Some human studies may be relevant but others may not since parrots have different digestive tracks.

[Wolf]

It is not the links that I don't understand it is the fact that the statement of it not being done on parrots is put out in response to the others links when both are using the same type of links. That is the only part that makes no sense to me. Everyone who reads the links knows that the study was not done on parrots, so why is it used only in response to a study that the party disagrees with?

I think that we must look at both whatever studies that we can find for the information contained in them, and we must also look at the personal experiences of others that are involved with parrots as both can provide useful insights and information.

[seagoatdeb]

It is not the links that I don't understand it is the fact that the statement of it not being done on parrots is put out in response to the others links when both are using the same type of links. That is the only part that makes no sense to me. Everyone who reads the links knows that the study was not done on parrots, so why is it used only in response to a study that the party disagrees with?

I think that we must look at both whatever studies that we can find for the information contained in them, and we must also look at the personal experiences of others that are involved with parrots as both can provide useful insights and information.

Yes we must look at all information, any coments about "not being done on parrots" was to say it may not apply to parrots in this case. I dont think anyone disagrees with any study at all,in this chain, I have read and reread everything. I agree that the finding for finches is a relevant study, but then we have to now apply it to parrots. There is a big difference here in that none of the studies were on how finches relate to their human companions and also parrots are more inteligent than finches. Since the topic being discussed was about a baby bird and the way it was relating to a human companion, we need to look at stress and how that applies to parrots as babies and how that affects their life with human companions. There are no studies out there that I can find, so only personal experience is left.

I dont believe everyone reads the links. So I will bring up the point we should try to make our expalnations more clear about why we are posting the link and how it applies to our point.

[Wolf]

Well, I can't say that I am in agreement or at least fully, but it is an explanation of how you mean it and that is primarily what I was looking for. Thank you.

[Pajarita]

The biggest problem about arguing that an avian study result is not valid because it was not done on parrots is that, if you are waiting for a study on parrots, you better not hold your breath. Researchers usually do only short term studies on animals because they need to publish the results fast in order to get more funding for another study -and also because each published study is a feather in their professional cap. It's very rare that you find long term studies on parrots like Dr. P's, for example. Even dietary studies are done in a matter of a year or two -which pretty much renders them useless for birds that have such long lifespans.

As to the parrot's higher intelligence been better than the lower intelligence of a finch in handling stress - well, again, there are no parrot studies but human studies usually indicate that the higher the IQ, the higher the chronic anxiety so it seems the old saying that ignorance is bliss is, after all, quite accurate. So, if one uses this info and extrapolates it to parrots, the lower intelligence actually benefits the finches. As to the bond with a human helping them, I am sure it does generally speaking but, taking into consideration our complete inadequacy as parrot companions compared to their having a bird companion (remember the gray study on shortened telomeres due to the stress of having only humans as companions?), I would say that it doesn't give them an advantage over the finches.

Now, don't misunderstand me. I am extremely sympathetic to your point of view. We would all love to believe that all our parrots are well-adjusted, healthy and happy and that the credit is entirely ours -Lord knows I would!. But I think that there is also a danger in this very normal, very human and very understandable way of thinking - that of complacency. I think it's better for the birds if we all keep in the front of our minds that these are animals that don't really belong in a human home and that, no matter how much we love them and they love us, they are all living terribly unnatural lives, lives that are unavoidably stressful to them from the moment they are stolen from their parents nests. Personally, I think that all pet parrots have stress issues and I worry about adding to them something terrible! To the point that, according to my family, I am maniacally obsessed with it. My husband's main complaint is that the house doesn't belong to him but to the birds: "I can't talk in my own house! I can't turn on a light in my own house! I can't even invite people to my own house! Everything is THE BIRDS THE BIRDS THE BIRDS!"