Suggested diet for an African Ringneck

[Chantilly]

Threads don't belong to anybody in particular, Brandon. This is a public forum, anybody can post and anybody can answer. It's not disrespectful for anybody to give their opinion as long as it's done correctly and following the rules of the forum.

As to doing scientific research but not reading long posts, you do realize that if you don't read 'long' things, you couldn't possibly be doing any thorough scientific research, right? Now, I know you are a child and do take this into consideration but this is a serious forum, Brandon, where we debate subjects in a mature way in order to learn from one another. So, if you don't want to get into an argument, don't start one even when you don't agree with what is been said because sarcastically dismissing an opposing argument to your position with a "I am not listening to you" retort is really not helpful to anybody - and least of all, you.

Where did I say I dont read long stuff? I dont read your long comments but yes I read long information on the internet and my parrot books.

I am not trying to fire up this conversation again or get in the middle of a fight.. but I do believe that you should read Pajaritas & Wolfs posts. Im not saying they know everything, but they have definately been keeping companion birds and reasearching it much longer than I, and most likely you too. Even if you dont decide to agree with what they say, at least take it into consideration.
I have learnt so much from them, they are here to help people (Its what the forums for!) and they are trying to help you, and give you their advice. Please accept that and atleast read the things that they spent their time to post for you.
Thanks

[Benjamin]

Thanks for the recipes Pajarita.

@tielfan
Are you saying this is good or bad?

The recipe given earlier in this thread is expected to provide more protein than seeds alone, because it's got both grains and beans in it.

[Wolf]

I really don't think that it will provide that much protein as seeds for the most part are high in protein and lacking in essential amino acids as well as other nutrients. Whole grains help to provide the missing nutrients while being much lower in protein and the beans do add some protein back into the mix but when coupled with the whole grains provide a more complete protein for the bird also the amount of beans in the mix is or should be about 20% or less. Add to this the vegetables and the amount of protein should be at about 10 to 12% at a maximum.

Too much protein is not good for the bird as the excess over a period of time can damage the liver, heart, kidneys and pancreas as far as I am aware of. The excess is also used to keep producing sexual hormones and thereby increasing the bird aggressiveness and prolonging the breeding cycle with major consequences for the bird.

[tielfan]

Can you please provide some sources showing that seeds are high in protein? Because every reliable-looking source that I've seen says the opposite. Every reliable-looking source that I've seen also says that the main difference between grain seeds and oil seeds is in whether they're higher in carbohydrates or fat. Otherwise their nutritional profile is really pretty similar.

A study on cockatiels found that they did just fine on a diet of 70% protein for a period of 11 months, at which point the study was discontinued. The 10-15% protein level in most pellets (and seed mixes too) is far short of this, and consistent with the minimum protein levels that the average protein species requires. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11435523

There are many factors that influence hormone levels. In general the apparent day length seems to play a much greater role than diet does. Any diet that provides an adequate amount of nutrients will probably be sufficient to put them "in the mood". Protein is not usually cited as the main dietary factor in raising hormone levels - it's more common to blame plentiful amounts of food in general, soft foods, and high-fat foots.

[tielfan]

To answer Benjamin's question, the expected higher protein content in the gloop recipe is desirable, because one of the challenges in "do it yourself" diets is getting enough protein without overdoing the calories. In fact the real question is whether the gloop recipe provides enough protein. I know people who actually run mash recipes through a nutritional calculator to make sure the nutrient levels are adequate, and they recommend a grain:bean ratio of 2:1 or even 1:1. The links in the recipe don't work so I can't tell what the quantity of beans is, so I don't know whether it reaches that level.

Another issue with "do it yourself" recipes is that some nutrients simply aren't available in plant foods, and others are hard to obtain in the right quantities or proportions. The amount of Vitamin D3 and B12 in that recipe is zero, so you have to look to another source for those. B12 isn't hard to provide (it's in bird poop and lots of birds have their own do it yourself approach lol), but D3 can be a bear. The recipe has beans and vegetables in it, so it's got more protein and vitamin A in it than an all-seed diet and that's good. But it's not easy to provide enough minerals on an all-plant diet. Even running it through a nutrient calculator won't tell you if it's enough, because they don't consider the actual bioavailability of the minerals in the food. Grains, seeds, nuts and beans contain a lot of anti-nutrients (primarily oxalate and phytate) which interfere with mineral absorption. It's best to provide a mineral block as an insurance policy so the bird can supplement its mineral levels if it feels the need.

[Pajarita]

Did you read the whole study? Because for one thing, it lasted only 11 months which, in a bird that is supposed to live 35 to 40 years makes the results pretty much meaningless as far as determining a long term maintenance diet (which was what the study was supposed to do). A young body (the birds were between 2 and 3 years old) can take a lot of abuse in a short period of time but apply the same abuse over years and the result is completely different. Mind you, this study is from 2001 and that is A LONG time ago when we are talking about what we have learned about parrots and their dietary needs. These short-term studies were very common back then (all the Roudybush studies were also 11 months to a year old) but, in reality, they did not give a whole lot of insight when it comes to maintenance diets - not that they did not help, mind you! It's like everything else, the first studies are kind of like the infancy of the discipline - without them, we wouldn't be where we are now.

For another, it does not say that they can eat 70% protein without consequences or even that it's good for them. It clearly states that the best muscle growth was achieved with the 20% protein diet and, when it comes to the 70%, all the kidney and liver values were bad and that the ONLY diet that did not affect the liver was the 11% protein one (which, by the way, it was the diet used in the control group - the other groups were 20% -because most commercial diets were at that level, 35% as a middle point to the 70% extreme).

Quote
Activity of the amino acid catabolic enzymes alanine aminotransferase, aspartate aminotransferase and arginase as well as the gluconeogenic enzyme phosphoenolpyruvate carboxykinase were significantly increased with 70% CP (P < 0.05). Serum essential amino acids, urea and uric acid were also increased with 70% CP (P < 0.05), but the magnitude of their increase was similar to that found in omnivorous chickens fed a similar diet. There was no evidence of visceral gout, articular gout or renal pathology; however liver lesion severity, and specifically liver lipogranuloma severity, was significantly increased above 11% CP
Unquote

Quote
In contrast to low lesion severity in kidneys, liver samples had increasing lesion severity with increasing dietary protein, and lesions were associated with an increased incidence of lipogranulomas
Unquote

But although there was only 'low lesion severity' in kidneys, they did find that the uric acid levels increased immediately on the 70% diet while not on the others (not that they would not have over time, mind you).
Quote
We observed a marked increase in serum levels of uric acid at 70% CP, indicating that increased uric acid synthesis accompanied increased amino acid catabolism. However, there were no significant differences in uric acid levels among the 11, 20 and 35% CP groups.
Unquote

It also states that the birds fed the 70% diet maintained their weight until the end when it was "significantly reduced" (a sure sign of something going wrong in there).

It further states that the wild cockatiels diet is of a much lower protein intake (the average of their chosen seeds been 11.4 % which is, pretty much, what they used on the control group and the one that did not show any 'bad' signs at all after the experiment -which tells us that nature knows best, doesn't it? ):
Quote
In their native areas of Australia, wild cockatiels select seeds with 8.8–14% crude protein (CP)4 and consume little or no animal matter
Unquote

So, as you can see, they did NOT do 'just fine' on 70% protein. They did not drop dead but they did not do just fine - and it was ONLT 11 months! Can you imagine if one fed them such high protein for years?!

[Pajarita]

To answer Benjamin's question, the expected higher protein content in the gloop recipe is desirable, because one of the challenges in "do it yourself" diets is getting enough protein without overdoing the calories. In fact the real question is whether the gloop recipe provides enough protein. I know people who actually run mash recipes through a nutritional calculator to make sure the nutrient levels are adequate, and they recommend a grain:bean ratio of 2:1 or even 1:1. The links in the recipe don't work so I can't tell what the quantity of beans is, so I don't know whether it reaches that level.

Another issue with "do it yourself" recipes is that some nutrients simply aren't available in plant foods, and others are hard to obtain in the right quantities or proportions. The amount of Vitamin D3 and B12 in that recipe is zero, so you have to look to another source for those. B12 isn't hard to provide (it's in bird poop and lots of birds have their own do it yourself approach lol), but D3 can be a bear. The recipe has beans and vegetables in it, so it's got more protein and vitamin A in it than an all-seed diet and that's good. But it's not easy to provide enough minerals on an all-plant diet. Even running it through a nutrient calculator won't tell you if it's enough, because they don't consider the actual bioavailability of the minerals in the food. Grains, seeds, nuts and beans contain a lot of anti-nutrients (primarily oxalate and phytate) which interfere with mineral absorption. It's best to provide a mineral block as an insurance policy so the bird can supplement its mineral levels if it feels the need.

D3 is not found on ANY vegetal source and herbivores make B12 (actually, the enzymes in the bacteria that lives in their digestive tract) so it's only found in their meat (parrots don't need any if you provide them with enough fresh sources of food because they are able to produce it themselves -and that's how it ends in their poop ). But, in any case, birds on the gloop and fresh produce diet also get a multivitamin/mineral supplement once a week just to fill up any 'gaps' there might be in it.

[tielfan]

The problems encountered at the 70% protein level were not considered to be serious. At least that is the conclusion of the scientists/veterinarians who evaluated the results. The study was undertaken to try and determine how much protein is too much, and I suspect that the 70% consumption level was intended to be the crazy over-the-top benchmark that the lower levels could be compared to. But it didn't work out that way and the tiels had the last laugh.

No one seriously recommends that you feed a bird 70% protein anyway. The real question is whether the commonly-recommended level of 10-15% (which is also the level found in pellets and most seed mixes) is excessive, and I can find no evidence that it is. In fact the level in seed mixes is generally considered to be deficient because seeds don't contain enough lysine to form an adequate amount of complete protein. The other amino acids that are "left over" after the lysine runs out are generally turned to urea and excreted. The protein levels in pellets are formulated to provide a better amino acid balance than a seed diet, so I'd expect the 10-15% protein level to be closer to the amount that the bird can actually use. But pellets are made from grains and beans and the amino acids in those aren't perfectly balanced even with human planning involved, so some of that total will still be "extra" amino acids that can't be used.

B12 is manufactured by bacteria in the gut, but the point where it's manufactured is below the point where it can actually be used. Hence the need to eat some poop to get the B12. The body can't take advantage of it on its first trip through the system, but it can get it the second time around. In the book Comparative Avian Nutrition, Klasing reports that experimenters who want to induce a vitamin B12 deficiency in birds for study purposes have to make sure they don't have access to their own poop.

[tielfan]

Birds use the same basic set of sex hormones that humans do, so I did some research on the link between dietary protein and sex hormones. It's said that high protein diets actually reduce testosterone production:

http://www.testshock.com/does-too-much- ... ein-shake/

http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2014/01 ... otein.html

http://www.anabolicmen.com/protein-testosterone/

I couldn't find any serious information on the effect that a high protein diet has on estrogen levels, so apparently there's no known link. But I did find some "don't take it too seriously" sites which say that low-protein diets cause overly high estrogen levels and a high-protein diet will fix this problem.

http://butternutrition.com/estrogen-dom ... imbalance/

http://main.poliquingroup.com/ArticlesM ... Load_.aspx

[tielfan]

P.S. Here's a nice plain-English quote from the Merck Veterinary Manual at http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/manag ... cines.html

"Cockatiels with no preexisting renal disease have been shown to tolerate extremely high dietary protein levels (up to 70%) with no renal impairment. "

I don't know how long it takes for an excessive amount of protein to cause kidney damage, but apparently the people conducting the study thought 11 months was a long enough time frame for it to happen if it was going to happen.

Here's a quote on high protein and kidney problems in humans, from a site that usually has pretty decent-looking information. We can't be certain that it's the same in birds but it's likely that they aren't too different. http://authoritynutrition.com/is-too-mu ... d-for-you/

"I looked into the literature and even though there is evidence that high protein causes harm in people with diagnosed kidney disease (9, 10), the same does NOT apply to people with healthy kidneys.

In fact, there are no studies showing harmful effects of protein in people who don’t have kidney disease. Even bodybuilders have healthy kidneys and they tend to eat very large amounts of protein, both from food and supplements (11, 12).

The two main risk factors for kidney failure are high blood pressure (hypertension) and diabetes. A higher protein intake improves both (13, 14, 15, 16).

So even IF the increased protein has a harmful effect on the kidneys (which there is no evidence of), it appears to be outweighed by the beneficial effects of lowered blood pressure and blood sugar."