Suggested diet for an African Ringneck

[Pajarita]

The damage caused by the 70% protein diet was not found to be bad after only 11 months. Again, that makes a big difference when you are talking about a maintenance diet. Liver damage is reversible (up to a certain point) but the fact that there was already liver lesions after only 11 months of the diet in birds that were only between 3 and 4 years of age is extremely serious! Birds don't usually develop any hepatic malfunction after years of eating badly and these did it after only 11 months! You need to take that into consideration when you talk about the results of the study - it's essential when you are talking maintenance diet!

The article you linked talks about athletes and weight lifters eating more than the recommended amount of protein, people who are much more active than normal people while pet cockatiels are much, much, much less active than their wild counterparts. Aside from that, you can't compare the diet of an omnivore to that of a granivore. Apples and oranges. We can extrapolate certain data from one to the other but not when it comes to protein metabolizing (you are talking different amino acids, enzymes, etc). Besides, the article is about high protein as possible cause of kidney disease which is not the same as high uric acid (which is what the study found). Now, high uric acid in birds can be caused by kidney malfunction as well as metabolic and chronic conditions like subclinical infections BUT in almost all the cases that a vet finds the value too high in the blood work, it's always because of a diet too high in protein. And, when it comes to birds, it can cause gout (with bumble foot as a secondary infection) and kidney stones and those are the two real dangers related to the kidneys and a high protein diet.

As to the link to breeding and a high protein diet, you can't use any human or even mammal study. Their endocrine system is completely different from the avian one. Birds are photoperiodic but the point of photorefractoriness for each species was determined, through evolution, to coincide to the time of the year when food is richer and more plentiful and the weather favorable to raising young - that's why we have short day and long day breeders and why diet, in captivity, is a trigger. This is something that canary breeders have known for hundreds of years and that parrot breeders have learned, too... you are not actually suggesting that the combined knowledge of thousands of people who raise and keep birds is not valid and that you are the only one who found the real answer, are you?

[Pajarita]

Sorry, I forgot about the B12. I don't understand your argument. The bird's body produces B12 in the digestive tract but BEFORE the intestines so why are you saying that they cannot absorb it? The key is fresh food diet. See this:https://www.quora.com/Do-parrots-need-vitamin-B12

Now, there is a link between methionine and B12 production but that's why I add sesame seed to my gloop

[tielfan]

When vitamin B12 is eaten in food it is released in the ventriculus/gizzard and absorbed in the small intestine. But the production site is in the colon, which is further down the line. That's why Klasing says "A diet almost completely devoid of animal foods and managements practices that prevent coprophagy [poop eating] are necessary to demonstrate a deficiency in poultry and Japanese Quail." If you do a google search for B12 feces you'll find a number of sites saying that vegans can get vitamin B12 by eating their own feces. There are even some sites contending that there's enough production higher up that a few vegans may be able to get by without this type of supplementation, but that's not typical.

I'm not qualified to evaluate the liver results of the 70% protein diet and I doubt that you are either. So all I can tell you is that every professional-level citation I've seen of this study indicated that the results were not considered to be a problem. There wasn't anyone who said "The kidneys do fine on this diet but oh my god you should see how it messes up the liver." If you know of a respectable source that does say something along those lines I would appreciate seeing it, because I want to know these things. The concerns about the dangers of a high protein diet relate primarily to kidney damage, which appears to not actually be a problem for cockatiels at least. Liver disease from protein consumption is generally not considered to be risk in healthy individuals, although people/birds who already have liver disease have to watch their intake.

The safety or not of a 70% protein intake is a moot point anyway. Nobody expects a diet that abnormal to be healthy in the long run. The question is about normal consumption levels The idea expressed in this thread that the protein level in seeds is dangerously high is quite unique - in fact I don't think I've ever seen it before. The mainstream complaint about "birdseed" is that it's too high in either carbohydrates or fat, and too low in protein. I've already presented professional statements about protein deficiency caused by an all-seed diet and links showing that the amino acid scores for seeds and grains indicate a protein level that's lower than the ideal protein to calorie ratio. I've also never seen anyone say before that the protein in seeds is a cause of fatty liver disease. There's plenty of complaints about the amount of fat in sunflower seed (which is more justifiable), but when it comes to protein all the sources that I've seen indicate that a protein deficiency can be a cause of fatty liver disease. For example: http://www.gastrojournal.org/article/S0 ... 7/abstract

The mainstream view isn't always right of course, but if you're going to swim against the mainstream you need to have some convincing evidence that you are right and they are wrong. You've been very dismissive of everything I've had to say, and at this point it would be very helpful for you to provide some evidence that seed really is excessively high in protein no matter what the professional avian nutrition community and the general-purpose nutritional databanks have to say about it.

It would also be helpful to have some calculations showing that the recipe in this thread is actually lower in complete protein than a standard birdseed mix, because I don't see how it can be (unless there is evidence that combining beans with grains actually lowers the protein level instead of increasing it). Some of the grains in this recipe are lower in total amino acids than millet and canarygrass seed (two of the standard ingredients in a basic birdseed mix), but they make up for it with higher protein quality scores. Oats are a common ingredient in both the birdseed mix and the recipe, and it has higher levels of protein than most grains along with a high protein quality score.

Nutrition Data's protein quality scores:

Basic birdseed mix:
Millet Protein per 100g: 4 grams Amino acid score 38
Canarygrass (NOT from NutritionData; accuracy of information is questionable
Protein per 100g: 22 grams Amino acid score 37
Cereal oats, not fortified dry Protein per 100g: 13 grams Amino acid score 95

Recipe ingredients:
Kamut Protein per 100g: 2 grams Amino acid score 55
Wheat, durum Protein per 100g: 2 grams Amino acid score 43
Barley, hulled Protein per 100g: 2 grams Amino acid score 73
Cereal oats, not fortified dry Protein per 100g: 13 grams Amino acid score 95
Rice, brown long-grain raw Protein per 100g: 3 grams Amino acid score 75
Corn, yellow Protein per 100g: grams Amino acid score 55
Hominy, canned white Protein per 100g: 1 grams Amino acid score 44
Flaxseed Protein per 100g: 18 grams Amino acid score 92
White beans, canned Protein per 100g: 7 grams Amino acid score 104

[tielfan]

P.S. I forgot to mention that I also provided the protein recommendations of the Expert Panel on Companion Bird Nutrition, which says that 12% is a conservative estimate of the minimum protein requirement for psittacines. So we need to be shown why they are wrong. http://lafeber.com/vet/expert-panel-on- ... nutrition/

According to http://www.2ndchance.info/birdloverAAFCO1998.pdf the members of the panel were Dr. Randal N. Brue, vice president of research and development at Kaytee Products, Inc., Dr. Milton Sunde, professor emeritus at the University of Wisconsin; Dr. Sue Crissey, director of the Brookfield Zoo (Chicago) nutrition services; and Mark Hagen, director of Research at Rolf C. Hagen, Inc. Two other nutritionists, Dr. Dick Grau, professor emeritus at the University of California-Davis and Dr. Dwayne Ullray, professor emeritus at Michigan State University, provided input. So they're a pretty diverse lot.

[Wolf]

Hi teilfan, welcome to the forum. I am still reading the links that you provided. I am very interested in avian nutrition, particularly that in relation to parrots. I know that at present we have differing views about the effects of protein in a parrots diet, but that is cool/ I had saved many documents and links to studies but unfortunately, I can't provide any of them as my computer died from abuse and I lost everything that was on it. This happened maybe a week to 10 days ago and I have been scrambling trying to find and replace all of that information as well as finding and saving new information. Thank you for the new links that you have posted, I would say that a couple of them are just write ups about one single study performed by the same people. I am guessing that they are included to provide a different manner of explaining the same study as people don't always understand things that are only described in one manner.

I don't know how this debate will end or what new and old information will be presented and don't really care as the only thing that I am interested in is providing the best possible diet for my birds that I can. Thank you for your input so far, I find it to be well thought out and very informative. Thanks.

[Benjamin]

That was a LOT of reading...but from what I can see the recipe is worth trying. Thanks for all the input. I think I'll be coming back to this thread a lot for the next few days.

[Wolf]

While I do feed gloop to my birds, the actual ingredients vary some what from batch to batch, but what I do try to maintain is the ratio of 40% whole grains, 40% vegetables and 20% white beans and lentil. I believe that this ratio worked out to a protein level of between 10 and 14%, but I had my calculations on the computer that died so I am trying to rebuild my data base all over.

I will admit that most of my research was about protein, but am also wanting to work out how the carbohydrates, fats and triglycerides function in the birds diet, just to name a few of my more immediate dietary concerns. Also want to know more about how the various vitamins and minerals interact in the birds body. Much of the information is difficult to find, but is well worth the effort to hunt down and understand.

[Benjamin]

I've been meaning to ask...how do I serve the gloop. The recipe isn't very clear...do I defrost it in the microwave once I take it out of the freezer?

[marie83]

Just leave it on the side for a while, it doesn't take long to defrost or stick it in the fridge the night before. I don't use the microwave as it can create hot spots and makes it go a bit mushy if you leave it too long but as long as you leave it to cool it should be ok.
I once forgot to put it on the side and ended up giving it to them frozen, they couldn't have cared less!

[Wolf]

Typically I pull out a container of it the night before and just let it thaw overnight to serve in the morning.