Suggested diet for an African Ringneck

[tielfan]

40% grains and 20% beans/lentils is a 2:1 ratio which is in the desirable range. The balance between grains/beans and other vegetables looks reasonable on the surface. Unless you're a professional nutritionist it's a real bear trying to figure out the amount of biovailable minerals in a food. That's one of the advantages of pellets - the decent brands WERE formulated by professional nutritionists and at least some of them have PhDs in the field. You can provide a mineral block and rely on 'natural wisdom' to some degree. There's a short list of nutrients that birds are believed to crave and seek out when they need them (calories, protein, calcium, salt) and a much longer list of nutrients that they apparently don't crave when they're deficient (everything else). I'm not convinced that every bird has gotten the memo on seeking out calcium but at least some of them will do it, and these birds will make sure their calcium needs are met if you give them the opportunity.

But as mentioned earlier, the lack of Vitamin D3 is a major concern. If your birds can get outdoors regularly for direct sunlight they can manufacture their own, but lots of people can't manage this. In high latitudes there isn't even enough UVB in the sunlight for a large chunk of the year. It's theoretically possible to do it with full spectrum lighting, but the bulbs aren't reliable so it's easier said than done. You have to drop a couple hundred bucks (or more) on a fancy light meter to find out what's really coming out of the bulb. There are no available plant sources of it and few animal sources, so the best options for providing it through diet are to use pellets or vitamin supplements. But vitamin supplements have to be used carefully, because excess Vitamin D is stored in the body and can build up to toxic levels if there's a chronic overdose situation.

[Pajarita]

When vitamin B12 is eaten in food it is released in the ventriculus/gizzard and absorbed in the small intestine. But the production site is in the colon, which is further down the line. That's why Klasing says "A diet almost completely devoid of animal foods and managements practices that prevent coprophagy [poop eating] are necessary to demonstrate a deficiency in poultry and Japanese Quail." If you do a google search for B12 feces you'll find a number of sites saying that vegans can get vitamin B12 by eating their own feces. There are even some sites contending that there's enough production higher up that a few vegans may be able to get by without this type of supplementation, but that's not typical.

I'm not qualified to evaluate the liver results of the 70% protein diet and I doubt that you are either. So all I can tell you is that every professional-level citation I've seen of this study indicated that the results were not considered to be a problem. There wasn't anyone who said "The kidneys do fine on this diet but oh my god you should see how it messes up the liver." If you know of a respectable source that does say something along those lines I would appreciate seeing it, because I want to know these things. The concerns about the dangers of a high protein diet relate primarily to kidney damage, which appears to not actually be a problem for cockatiels at least. Liver disease from protein consumption is generally not considered to be risk in healthy individuals, although people/birds who already have liver disease have to watch their intake.

The safety or not of a 70% protein intake is a moot point anyway. Nobody expects a diet that abnormal to be healthy in the long run. The question is about normal consumption levels The idea expressed in this thread that the protein level in seeds is dangerously high is quite unique - in fact I don't think I've ever seen it before. The mainstream complaint about "birdseed" is that it's too high in either carbohydrates or fat, and too low in protein. I've already presented professional statements about protein deficiency caused by an all-seed diet and links showing that the amino acid scores for seeds and grains indicate a protein level that's lower than the ideal protein to calorie ratio. I've also never seen anyone say before that the protein in seeds is a cause of fatty liver disease. There's plenty of complaints about the amount of fat in sunflower seed (which is more justifiable), but when it comes to protein all the sources that I've seen indicate that a protein deficiency can be a cause of fatty liver disease. For example: http://www.gastrojournal.org/article/S0 ... 7/abstract

The mainstream view isn't always right of course, but if you're going to swim against the mainstream you need to have some convincing evidence that you are right and they are wrong. You've been very dismissive of everything I've had to say, and at this point it would be very helpful for you to provide some evidence that seed really is excessively high in protein no matter what the professional avian nutrition community and the general-purpose nutritional databanks have to say about it.

It would also be helpful to have some calculations showing that the recipe in this thread is actually lower in complete protein than a standard birdseed mix, because I don't see how it can be (unless there is evidence that combining beans with grains actually lowers the protein level instead of increasing it). Some of the grains in this recipe are lower in total amino acids than millet and canarygrass seed (two of the standard ingredients in a basic birdseed mix), but they make up for it with higher protein quality scores. Oats are a common ingredient in both the birdseed mix and the recipe, and it has higher levels of protein than most grains along with a high protein quality score.

Nutrition Data's protein quality scores:

Basic birdseed mix:
Millet Protein per 100g: 4 grams Amino acid score 38
Canarygrass (NOT from NutritionData; accuracy of information is questionable
Protein per 100g: 22 grams Amino acid score 37
Cereal oats, not fortified dry Protein per 100g: 13 grams Amino acid score 95

Recipe ingredients:
Kamut Protein per 100g: 2 grams Amino acid score 55
Wheat, durum Protein per 100g: 2 grams Amino acid score 43
Barley, hulled Protein per 100g: 2 grams Amino acid score 73
Cereal oats, not fortified dry Protein per 100g: 13 grams Amino acid score 95
Rice, brown long-grain raw Protein per 100g: 3 grams Amino acid score 75
Corn, yellow Protein per 100g: grams Amino acid score 55
Hominy, canned white Protein per 100g: 1 grams Amino acid score 44
Flaxseed Protein per 100g: 18 grams Amino acid score 92
White beans, canned Protein per 100g: 7 grams Amino acid score 104

OK, let's see. B12 produced in the colon - can you give me a link for this info? Because everything I have and looked up before I answered says that although humans make it in the small intestine, herbivores either use the rumen or their stomach(s) (insects and birds do it this way - did you read the biologist reply to the question for which I provided the link?)

Klasing quote - he is talking about a species that is omnivore and another one that is herbivore/insectivore and we are mostly talking about parrot species that are classified as herbivore. There is a difference - for example, we, humans, are omnivores and because we are supposed to eat meat (which has B12) we don't produce enough of our own (insect meat is also very rich in B12) so animals that evolved to eat a diet that already has B12 in it, were not 'made' to produce enough of it.

Analyzing studies - yes, you are correct, it's not easy and simply reading the conclusions doesn't do it, either. You had concluded that cockatiels do 'just fine' on a 70% protein diet and, apparently, Brandon must have read a posting of yours stating so, repeated the info here and, when I knocked it down, told you that there was somebody here that did not agree with you so you came to see why -which I celebrate because I love people who go to scientific studies to learn instead of just reading what somebody posted in a bird site! (This is what I ALWAYS tell people to do so you are a parrot keeper after my own heart ). Now, I have no formal education on avian nutrition, all I know is self-taught and you are right that you need to be very careful about studies. I learned this myself over 20 years of reading studies with a dictionary next to me Let me share with you what I've learned:
1. You need to look at the purpose of the study because the conclusion is going to be specific to it (in this one, they wanted to find out at what level protein became toxic -unfortunately, they did not make the distinction of acute toxicity versus chronic toxicity and that's where our disagreement stems from because there are substances that might not be acutely toxic but that, consumed in large quantities, become chronically toxic -like sugar, for example)
2. You need to look at the subjects (in this case it's perfect because it's parrots but, for example, you used estrogen and testosterone production in humans as an example that high protein does not influence them which is not good because humans reproductive system is completely different from the avian - we produce sexual hormones all the time, birds don't - we stop producing them as we get old, birds don't - mammals have monoestrus cycles, birds are photoperiodic, etc)
3. You need to look at the methodology (and this includes duration - in this case, it was only 11 months done on young, healthy birds that were killed after so as to perform necropsies)
4. You need to look at ALL the information (in this case it would be weight, uric acid, liver lesions, granulomas, etc)

Protein level in seeds - I might be wrong but I don't think anybody here ever said that the level of protein in seed, per se, is too high (I feed seed and would not do it if I though it was bad for my birds), what we might have said is that free-feeding high protein food is bad. And the reason for this is that parrots are 'programmed' to gorge on protein food the same way that humans are 'programmed' to gorge on, say, salt, for example. Nature made it so all animals crave necessary elements in their diet that are not easy to find in nature so, when they do find them, they eat a lot of it so as to 'balance' things out. We, humans, no longer need to depend on hunting and foraging for our nutrition so our craving for salt has turned against us and we need to be careful how much we end up consuming. Well, it's the same thing for parrots and protein. Give a parrot a bowl full of seeds and he will choose the ones with the higher protein and eat and eat and eat of them until he is full without looking at the leafy green. But, give, say, a canary -which is a natural seed eater- the same choice and the canary will go for the green first. See what I mean? It's a matter of offering the same amount of that particular dietary requirement that the animal would get in nature. I actually give them more protein during the warm weather months precisely because I want to reproduce as closely as possible the dietary seasons or cycles they follow in nature.

The low protein link to fatty liver disease study - again, you need to look closely at everything in a study. This study did not say that low protein causes fatty liver, it said that fatty liver disease under a low protein diet was caused by a defect in the production of tryglicerides - I quote from the study: "It is concluded that the fatty liver of protein deficiency is predominantly due to a defect in the secretion of hepatic triglycerides" - See the difference?

You are 100% right that it would be very useful to have the gloop recipe analyzed so we could tell exactly all the different values but I'll tell you, the reason why I haven't done it is twofold: lack of funds and the fact that I am constantly changing it so, the results I would get today would not be the same as the ones I will get in two, three, six months time and here is where the lack of funds comes in - because I would not mind having it done once but having it done every few months will not go well with my husband (the one who pays my birds bills -which are pretty high as it is But, as soon as I have some extra money and have settled on a recipe -at least for a little while , I will). But the values you give on the gloop recipe don't seem to be right because, for example, kamut is not 2% protein as you have it -neither is wheat- it's actually much higher (between 10 and 14% - see this: http://www.einkorn.com/wp-content/uploa ... Matrix.pdf). I don't use cereal oats or durum wheat or brown rice, for that matter. And yes, the amino acid score you mention is a good indicator but you need to take into consideration that it's based on the requirements of humans and their ability to digest it. We were not created to live on the same food as parrots so, although I do take it into consideration (and that's why I use all different kinds of grains and seeds and add insect protein to it on the warm weather months), I don't consider it completely relevant for birds.

[tielfan]

I haven't been able to find a direct statement on the upper safe limit for protein, but it appears that the avian veterinary/nutrition profession accepts 30% as a safe crude protein level for parrots. The Merck Veterinary Manual didn't flinch at anything but IMO a more prudent approach is desirable. The liver lesions are obviously not a good thing whether they're a major problem or not. The book Clinical Avian Medicine Chapter 4 Page 89 (available for free viewing at http://avianmedicine.net/publication_ca ... -medicine/ ) mentions the study and advises against the 70% level because of the liver lesions, but doesn't object to the 20% and 30% levels. The safe level for humans is 10-35% according to http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/protein The requirements for humans aren't the same as those for birds of course, but in many instances they aren't terribly dissimilar. So the available evidence suggests that an upper limit of 20-30% for birds is not unreasonable and 20% is probably veryconservative.

BTW the book talks about several potential problems associated with excessive protein consumption but doesn't include the ones mentioned in this thread (fatty liver disease, obesity, high cholesterol, cardiovascular problems, high hormone levels and aggression). The first four are usually blamed on excessive carb/fat calories in the diet, and diet isn't usually considered to be the primary cause of the last two.

I looked up the crude protein levels in about a dozen seed mixes (I can provide the list if you want to see it). They ranged from 10-18%, with budgie mixes having the lowest percentage and large-hookbill mixes having the highest. Large hookbills are believed to have higher minimum protein requirements (10-15%) than budgies (about 7%) so this isn't screamingly inappropriate. Protein deficiency has serious consequences so it's best to aim a little above the bare minimum to make sure you don't miss the target.

What DOES seem screamingly inappropriate is the high fat levels (up to 23%) in the large hookbill mixes. The Expert Panel didn't make a recommendation for fat levels but they did make a recommendation for total calories, and these seed mixes are probably way over it if fed as a major percentage of the diet. That's another thing that's been missing from the conversation so far - looking only at when seed is being fed and not at what else is being fed at the same time or the percentage of seed in the diet.

Actually I'm puzzled at the recommendations for the timing of seed feeding. I don't understand why it would cause hours of piteous hunger if fed in the morning and hours of contented fulfillment if fed at night. If you're going for a twice-daily feeding schedule (which is more common with large parrots then with small ones), I don't understand why there would be a problem with simply taking everything in the bird's daily diet and feeding half of it in the morning and half of it at night. I've never seen any other source suggest that it makes a difference. For human weight loss purposes, bedtime is considered to be the worst possible time to eat high calorie foods because that's when it's most likely to get turned into body fat.

[tielfan]

The B12 is really a non-issue since it's easy to provide in any case. Parrots are too good at pooping on every available surface to completely eliminate their access to it. Researchers have been able to induce Vitamin B12 deficiency in birds by withholding access to animal protein and feces, which is good enough evidence for me about the limitations of relying on internal production.

The purpose of the protein study was to determine whether it caused kidney impairment or not. They found that even excessively high levels of it did not cause kidney impairment, so kidney damage is pretty much off the table as a risk with foods that contain less than 20% protein. No one in their right mind would feed a 70% protein diet to a bird on a longterm basis, so it's not productive to talk on and on about the study. We're interested in much lower levels of protein consumption.

Where's the evidence that protein affects hormone levels in birds? If anything has been established then backup is available. If there's no backup then we're dealing with speculation not facts, and advice based on speculation should be clearly expressed as an opinion not facts.

The major point of contention in the early part of this thread is that seed is too high in protein to be fed in the morning, and that protein is the major villain in a lot of problems that the rest of the world blames on something else. I've seen lots of complaints about seeds but never anything like this, and I'm curious about where it's coming from.

Here's another statement that I don't understand. ""Seeds are high in protein and lacking in many nutrients such as essential fatty acids regardless of when they are fed." Certain seeds are the ONLY significant source of those hard-to-get Omega 3 fats. The only meaningful source of Omega 3 in the gloop recipe is the flaxseed. On the other hand all seeds, grains and nuts have plentiful amounts of Omega 6 fats, which are essential but generally oversupplied in the diet.

BTW the only seed I know of that has a protein level higher than 30% is hemp. It isn't plentiful in birdseed mixes but it's valued for its Omega 3 content. The human health community calls it a superfood, and they say the same thing about sunflower. It's only the bird community that demonizes sunflower, but even the bird community usually has respect for small amounts of hemp.

And the reason for this is that parrots are 'programmed' to gorge on protein food the same way that humans are 'programmed' to gorge on, say, salt, for example. Nature made it so all animals crave necessary elements in their diet that are not easy to find in nature so, when they do find them, they eat a lot of it so as to 'balance' things out.

I'm sorry but this doesn't really make sense to me and it disagrees with informed sources and general observations. Klasing says that birds are 'programmed' to remedy deficiencies in protein, calcium and salt, not that they will gorge on these things whether they need them or not. It seems to be accepted everywhere but here that seeds do not provide an adequate amount of complete protein unless eaten in excess quantity, which is a better explanation for any gorging. Birds don't devour as much cuttlebone as they can get their beaks on because they're programmed to eat all they can, any more than humans spend the day swallowing teaspoons of salt just because they can.

Got any evidence that high protein diets are associated with fatty liver disease? Because that's the claim that was made earlier in this thread, and I haven't been able to find any backup for that idea. The internet in general indicate that the liver requires protein to perform its job effectively and that's why low protein levels cause defective performance.

I like the einkorn chart and use it a lot. But it does give dramatically different protein levels than Nutrition Data does. Both get their information from the USDA database so I don't know the reason for the discrepancy. If we go with the levels in the einkorn chart, the complaints about seed being too high in protein for morning use become even more mysterious, because there's so little difference in the protein levels.

There's plenty of free information on the internet that lets people make their own nutrient calculations. It won't untangle the "bioavailable minerals" mystery for you but it will answer a lot of other questions. Different soures tend to produce different measurements, but the USDA database is usually considered to be the gold standard. The USDA doesn't provide amino acid details but this information is available in other places for the common seeds/grains/nuts/beans. But not for lentils for some reason lol. I couldn't find amino acid details on them, and had to go with split peas instead.

[tielfan]

P.S. If there haven't been any calculations on the gloop recipe then we don't actually know what it provides, do we? It's obviously expected to be superior to an all-seed diet but we can't make meaningful comparisons between it and anything else. For example we simply don't know how it compares to giving a bird some seed, vegetables and sprouted lentils. I know people who HAVE done the calculations and made a serious effort to achieve the desired levels, and they say it's very difficult. A recipe that hasn't been analyzed isn't likely to surpass or even come close to matching the nutrient levels in a professionally formulated pellet.

[marie83]

I know the protein, fat and carb levels in the gloop mix I make. It's not as I want it yet though, I keep playing around with the ingredients.
As long as you know the nutritional content of each ingredient and the amount you put in then it is very easy to work out totals. There are programs online that do the work for you. I haven't used the free ones though as I have access to a paid one but I can't imagine they are any harder to operate.

[tielfan]

The mystery of the discrepancy between einkorn and Nutrition Data has been solved - it was human error by me. I'm so used to looking at the fat content that I looked at that instead of the protein line, in the case of kamut at least. When I look at the correct line both sources agree. So my bad on that. I still don't understand why seed is considered to be so much worse.

The amino acid needs of humans and birds aren't identical, but the main limiting amino acids are the same in both cases (lysine and methionine) and we have expert guidelines on the four primary limiting amino acids for birds (lysine, methionine, arginine and threonine). BTW it looks to me like the expert panel intentionally recommended twice as much lysine as is actually needed. That's usually the most limiting AA and I guess they wanted to make sure there was enough of it.

I did some calculations on the difference between human requirements and bird requirements. My protein quality chart at http://www.littlefeatheredbuddies.com/i ... seeds3.jpg shows the scoring for a few common seeds/grains/beans using bird standards and compares it to Nutrition Data's scoring for humans. The bird calculations are pretty close to NutritionData's for the lysine-limited foods. They're about twice as high for the methionine-limited foods, but that's because of the built-in doubling up in the expert recommendations. Bascially you get twice as much credit if you run out of methionine before you run out of lysine. If you cut my scores in half it's pretty close to Nutrition Data's in most cases. The scores are almost identical on the threonine-limited foods. So in general the Nutrition Data scores are a reasonable approximation of the protein value for birds.

The other essential amino acids are plentiful enough in the diet that you don't really need to worry about them. When it comes to the other essential AAs, birds require arginine and humans don't; and humans require histidine and most parrots don't. But this doesn't throw off the comparison to the Nutrition Data score unless the limiting AA is arginine or histidine, which isn't usually the case.

[tielfan]

Late-breaking thought here... sorry guys, sometimes it takes a while for my brain to connect the dots.

Dietary amino acids can not be stored in the body for future use, and the essential amino acids can't be synthesized in the body. That's why it's important to have an adequate protein intake every day. Excess calories in the diet CAN be stored in the body for future use (as fat not as protein), and it's theoretically possible to gorge on protein in order to save up some fat for future energy needs. But overeating carbohydrates is a much more efficient way to accomplish that goal, and carbs are usually a lot easier to obtain than protein. The idea of a parrot gorging on protein to make up for past deficiencies works, since it can be used immediately in the body. But the idea of a parrot gorging on protein for future use doesn't work.

[Pajarita]

It's not for future use. That would be like saying that we eat lots of salt for future use, we don't. We do it because we like it (and we do eat waaaaaayyyyy too much of it!), the same way that parrots do it because they like it - and they like protein for the same reason we like salt: because of nature's 'programming'. It's actually quite simple: in nature, protein is not easily available (abundance and frequency) to parrots the same way that way when we were hunters/gatherers salt was not easily available so, because these are dietary elements that are necessary for life, nature gave every single species what is called 'survival traits' - in our case and the parrots, a 'craving' for these elements that are not easy to find and necessary. There is a book written by a Dean of Columbia University medical school (I forget his name) called "Too much of a good thing" which explains how four survival traits that ancient man needed in order to make it are now killing us because of the so very different life we have. It's the same with pet parrots. They are undomesticated species with all the same needs and dietary survival traits the wild ones have but they are in cages (no exercise) and don't have to go looking for food or go ever hungry - they have hours and hours and hours of boredom and inactivity with a bowlful of food in front of their faces. That is the danger of free-feeding food that is high in protein and fat. Because they will eat too much of it.

Look, I LOVE debating and exchanging ideas, concepts, sources and general knowledge but I have to tell you, you are very long winded but don't stay on track on the back and forth... You keep on putting up arguments or making statements that you contradict or don't provide a link to substantiate when asked for it but, instead, just keep on adding links and comments instead of clarifying the ones that were left dangling. You said that cockatiels did just fine on 70% diet - then you said that nobody would feed a diet that high in protein... but if nobody would, why would you say they did just fine on it? What is the purpose of the statement exactly? You say that the study was meant to see if the high protein diet caused kidney impairment but this was not the purpose of the study, it was to see if the birds managed to adapt metabolically to a high protein diet (which they did in the short term and after been staggered on the levels of protein so as not to cause immediate toxicity). You use human sexual hormones information to prove that birds hormones are not affected by richer food when everything we know about evolution and the different breeding mechanisms for species tells us that they are made to breed when the conditions are most favorable like lambs, calves, foals, baby bunnies, etc that are born in spring, - which, when it comes to birds means plentiful and rich food and good weather so some of them do it when the days are long and some when they are short (that's why cockatiels start producing sexual hormones at the end of the rainy season, so the babies would be born when food is plentiful after the rains end or why IRNs breed in short days, because, during the long days, there is either a monsoon going on or the days are so hot the eggs would cook). This is evolution at work so the species has the best chances of surviving - there is no real mystery to it and is nothing but common sense but here is something for you to read specifically about avian reproduction and its timing: http://www.academia.edu/14473153/Food_s ... production You said that the gloop had no B12 and when I said that they produced it themselves, you said they couldn't use it unless they ate their own poop because it was made in the colon and past the point of absorption but, when I asked you for a link to this information, you said the whole Vit B12 point was irrelevant because it can be supplemented. You argue that soy is not worse than any other pulse but drop the argument after I give you several sites that don't agree with the statement. You give a link supposedly in support of an argument that low protein can cause fatty liver which was not that, at all. You criticize the gloop protein values using information that you admit was a mistake but, I have to tell you, it's a big one because anybody who has done a bit of reading about grains protein would have known right away that the info was wrong - and it's protein value IS the main point of the debate. You keep on using the argument that seeds are not that high in protein, that nobody believes this, that consensus is that is not and use a million different ways of saying the same thing when I already explained to you that it's not the actual value of protein in the seed or nuts, it's the free-feeding that does it -and if you don't see the difference between feeding them food higher in protein/fat for dinner when they would fill up their crop once and feeding it for breakfast when they would eat it more than once and less produce, I don't know how to explain it to you. You say that there is no link between high protein and fatty liver disease (which by the way, the high protein goes hand in hand with high fat) and that you haven't found any reference to obesity, cardiovascular problems, etc - now, I don't know how much you know about fatty liver, I certainly hope none of your birds has it or ever gets it but I rescue birds so I've had several birds with it (and still have two with it plus two more with liver problems not caused by hepatic lipidosis) so I've had to learn a bit in terms of treatment and every single avian vet will tell you that you need to reduce protein (and fat, of course) in the diet - see these: http://www.beautyofbirds.com/liverdisease.html#diet
http://www.birdsnways.com/wisdom/ww61eiii.htm - By the way, it's the excess of protein that the liver cannot metabolize that makes them get overgrown beaks and nails.

It's not that I mind the debate because I don't but I really don't have the time to keep on saying the same things over and over... especially since you make points that are either incorrect, not thoroughly researched or simply dismiss them as irrelevant or never mentioned them again as I argue them. The whole thing is beginning to feel like a fifth degree and that's not what debate is all about. Now, as a matter of fairness, would you mind telling me how long have you had parrots and how many, if you breed them and, most importantly, what you feed them? This way, we can establish a comparison of what I recommend and what you recommend

[tielfan]

It's actually very doubtful whether humans really eat too much salt:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/03/opini ... d=all&_r=1

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... r-on-salt/

The main topic here is quite simple, and it's been an ongoing struggle to try and keep the discussion on track instead of diverging into irrelevant side issue. Proof that B12 is made only in the colon? Not relevant. This is a thread about the protein in seeds, and B12 can be obtained from the environment anyway. The safety of a 70% protein diet? Moot point. We're talking about the protein levels in an ordinary diet. More about that in the next post.