Suggested diet for an African Ringneck

[tielfan]

Here's the real subject of the discussion. It was stated early in this thread that seeds have such a high protein level that they should not be fed in the morning. Also that high protein diets cause fatty liver disease, obesity, high cholesterol, cardiovascular problems, high hormone levels, and aggression. I am unable to find supporting evidence for any of this, and the available information indicates that all of it disagrees with the mainstream medical/nutritional viewpoint. A lot of it is so far off the radar screen that no one else is even talking about it, and it's hard to find information that's remotely relevant. No one else on this thread has provided a shred of backup for any of it either, so at this point I have to conclude that supporting evidence does not exist. This group obviously has good intentions, but IMO they are promoting baseless ideas as scientific fact. This is not the kind of place where I want to hang out so I'm outta here.

The nutrition database information on the protein content of foods is solid and basically irrefutable, but I'm the only person here talking about this kind of data. A safe upper limit hasn't been established for avian protein intake, but the available evidence indicates that the veterinary profession is comfortable with a 30% level and this is not unreasonable. A study on protein and kidney failure was unable to find any problems whatsoever at the 20% level. The reason that protein intake could be an issue with the kidneys is that excess protein is converted to urea and excreted, which increases the workload for the kidneys. Kidneys that are chronically overloaded will be damaged within a few months, and the study lasted long enough to establish that this wasn't a problem even at the 70% protein level.

But there are other relevant factors that basically turn even the 20-30% comfort level into a moot point. Nutrition Data has a search function that lets you get a list of foods in order of their protein content. Food that's in a reasonably natural state has a pretty limited protein level, topping out at about 40% max. To go any higher than that you have to process a food to remove non-protein components like fat, carbohydrates and moisture (of course the moisture content is restored when water is added or drunk). There are few plant foods that exceed the 24% level, and most are well below 20%. The 25-40% range mostly consists of meat and other animal products.

In order to reach a 20% crude protein level in the overall diet, you'd have to feed a bird a diet so unbalanced that the crude protein percent would be the least of your worries. An all-sunflower diet would put you slightly above 20% but everybody knows that is a bad, bad idea. Commercial bird seed mixes top out around 18%, and most are in the 10-15% range. The fat content in some of these mixes is a lot scarier than anything else about them. We have not been given any information on the protein level in the gloop recipe so we don't know how it compares to an ordinary seed mix.

[tielfan]

So yes, I agree that this has been an unproductive and unsatisfactory discussion. I asked for some backup for the statements that were made early in this thread but didn't get any. I dug up whatever I could find related to the protein content of foods, protein requirements and safe protein levels, and the known risks of excessive protein consumption. The replies consisted of nitpicking about B12 sources and talk about the risks of a 70% protein diet, which is not remotely attainable using natural foods and ordinary food-preparation methods.

The viewpoint on this board is so unique that people are probably going to hear something different when they talk about the subject on a different board anyway. The gloop recipe is obviously superior to an all-seed diet and doesn't look any worse than a lot of other diets that are being promoted on the internet, so these unusual ideas probably aren't doing too much harm. Goodbye and thank you for your time.

[JessiMuse]

I do think we can all agree that with the exception of a lot of human foods that birds shouldn't eat, ANY diet is better than an all seed diet. Whether they have too much protein or not enough protein, they lack the nutrients that parrots need, and living off of seeds alone is definitely not enough.

While this debate has been interesting (and somewhat amusing) to watch, I'm glad it can come to an end without someone having to step in and break it up, even when we can't come to a mutual agreement about the main subject. Good on you both for being mature!

[Pajarita]

And I still don't know how many birds he has, how long he's had them, if he breeds them and what he is feeding them

The point is that nobody really knows what the exact dietary needs of all the different species of parrots we keep are (not even the PHD's that, according to the gentleman, make the recipes for the pellets and, most certainly, not avian vets who never even study the subject) but, even if we did find out, it would never be the same level all year round because birds always eat better (and that means more protein) during breeding season (and that's the simple reply for the link between high protein/fat and breeding behaviors, something that anybody who has a highly opportunistic breeder species like budgies or cockatiels learned the hard way).

If you think about it, gloop is simply a wetter and more natural version of pellets. It's made out of pretty much the same grains but the vitamins/minerals are added in a more natural form (veggies). Granted, you do have to supplement D3 but I think that it's healthier to regulate its intake as the need arises than just give them the same amount all year round.

Is gloop the final answer? I don't know. Lord knows I am always changing the recipe so, obviously, what I am feeding now will not be what I feed in a year or two. But, in my personal opinion and experience (and this is the reason why I asked for how long he's had birds and how many) which means many birds for many years, it works very well to keep them healthy and happy.

[tielfan]

I didn't want to come back to this thread, but in the interest of pet-bird safety I feel obligated to report that there is direct confirmation that internal production of Vitamin B12 isn't enough.

From Comparative Avian Nutrition (Klasing): "Vitamin B12 is REQUIRED at levels IN THE DIET that are at least 15-fold less than any other nutrient. This very low requirement is probably due to a combination of low metabolic needs, low endogenous losses, and microbial synthesis in the LOWER gastrointestinal tract." The capital letters are all mine. It doesn't take much to meet the need but an external source is required to prevent deficiency.

From http://articles.extension.org/pages/653 ... ive-system

"the ceca produce several fatty acids as well as the eight B vitamins (thiamine, riboflavin, niacin, pantothenic acid, pyridoxine, biotin, folic acid, and vitamin B12). Because the ceca are located so close to the end of the digestive tract, however, few of the produced nutrients are absorbed and available to the chicken."

The ceca are located at the point where the small intestine joins the large intestine (colon). Ceca are used in species that require extra fermentation time to process some foods. Parrots are one of the bird species that don't have ceca, but the general location of digestive bacteria is similar in all species - the bottom end of the digestive tract.

[JessiMuse]

Hold on Paj. You said we had to "supplement" the D3. Aren't vitamin supplements supposed to be bad? And when we don't know how much a bird exactly needs, wouldn't there be a risk of overdosing? That can't be good for the bird.

And I still don't know how many birds he has, how long he's had them, if he breeds them and what he is feeding them

If you look at the little information under the username on the left hand side of all the posts, you will see that she has 14 birds, and the species listed are cockatiels and princess parrots. Since cockatiels are plural, and princess parrot is listed as singular, then it would lead me to make an educated guess that she has 13 cockatiels and one princess parrot.

I'll leave that up to Tielfan to explain what she feeds them and whether or not she breeds her birds, as well as how long she has had birds.

[Wolf]

I don't like to use artificial vitamin/ mineral supplements as they are not as effective as the naturally occurring ones also due to the dangers of upsetting the balance of these that the bird needs for good health, for that reason I try to find foods that contain the required nutrients if I can. If I must supplement a given vitamin or mineral on a regular basis, I try to do it based on the vets recommendation after there has been an exam and blood work so that we have something to go by.

Tielfan, I am glad that you did come back to this thread, I am reading al of your links and as I said, my inability to provide reciprocal links is simply due to a computer crash and I am working on rebuilding my data base as quickly as I can. Parrot nutrition is very important to me, I am, in addition to rebuilding the information that I lost, looking for supporting documentation for the study that you have linked to and in fact have downloaded the full report on that study onto my computer so that I have it for further research.
There is so little that is actually known that this is an area that we both will be studying and researching for the remainder of our lives and still only have scratched the surface. Even if we do not always agree on everything it is good to have our differing viewpoints posted and to discuss them as it helps to provide more information for all of our members to research as well and can lead to better diets for their birds. Please don't get so discouraged as I would really like to continue this discussion, possibly in its own thread as soon as I have rebuilt my data base enough to present the links to that information for you to look at. I am not discounting anything that you have said nor am I refusing to provide the information that you are asking for.

[Pajarita]

I didn't want to come back to this thread, but in the interest of pet-bird safety I feel obligated to report that there is direct confirmation that internal production of Vitamin B12 isn't enough.

From Comparative Avian Nutrition (Klasing): "Vitamin B12 is REQUIRED at levels IN THE DIET that are at least 15-fold less than any other nutrient. This very low requirement is probably due to a combination of low metabolic needs, low endogenous losses, and microbial synthesis in the LOWER gastrointestinal tract." The capital letters are all mine. It doesn't take much to meet the need but an external source is required to prevent deficiency.

From http://articles.extension.org/pages/653 ... ive-system

"the ceca produce several fatty acids as well as the eight B vitamins (thiamine, riboflavin, niacin, pantothenic acid, pyridoxine, biotin, folic acid, and vitamin B12). Because the ceca are located so close to the end of the digestive tract, however, few of the produced nutrients are absorbed and available to the chicken."

The ceca are located at the point where the small intestine joins the large intestine (colon). Ceca are used in species that require extra fermentation time to process some foods. Parrots are one of the bird species that don't have ceca, but the general location of digestive bacteria is similar in all species - the bottom end of the digestive tract.

Parrots don't have ceca.

[Wolf]

It was near the bottom of the post but that is also stated by tielfan.

[Pajarita]

Hold on Paj. You said we had to "supplement" the D3. Aren't vitamin supplements supposed to be bad? And when we don't know how much a bird exactly needs, wouldn't there be a risk of overdosing? That can't be good for the bird.

And I still don't know how many birds he has, how long he's had them, if he breeds them and what he is feeding them

If you look at the little information under the username on the left hand side of all the posts, you will see that she has 14 birds, and the species listed are cockatiels and princess parrots. Since cockatiels are plural, and princess parrot is listed as singular, then it would lead me to make an educated guess that she has 13 cockatiels and one princess parrot.

I'll leave that up to Tielfan to explain what she feeds them and whether or not she breeds her birds, as well as how long she has had birds.

Vitamin D3 supplementation is pretty unavoidable when you are talking about pet parrots because the only food that has it is animal products. No plant product does. Animals produce it themselves through a chemical reaction of cholesterol on the skin and direct sunlight but, as parrots are not normally exposed to direct sun on a daily basis and you shouldn't really feed them animal products (at least, not all the time), you always have to supplement. And, yes, it is a tricky thing to do because as nature meant for it to be produced by the body (meaning, not ingested) and it is fat soluble, if you give them too much, it ends up as a fatty nodule in the liver. The other possible problem (and I say 'possible' because I've never found any scientific source for it) is one that canary breeders noted, and that is that if you supplement a bird with D3 everyday, some of them lose the ability to move calcium out of their bones (which is what they do when they produce eggs) so, although you may have a bird with enough calcium, it still ends up eggbound.

And, yes, like Wolf, I really dislike the concept of giving the birds lab-made vitamin/mineral supplementation but, given the fact that the diet we give them (no matter how hard we try or how fresh and nutritious we make it) is unnatural both in elements and in cycles (I am talking about the seasonality of their natural diets) and that we are dealing with birds that, in the greatest majority of the cases, were not really weaned properly so although we might offer a very nutritious and rounded up diet, they might not be eating everything we give them, I don't really see any other option but to give them some. I use 1.5 daily dosage of a powder vitamin/mineral supplement that is meant to be sprinkled on their soft food (gloop) once a week during the winter and 1 daily dosage twice a week during the warm weather months. It has worked fine so far as none of my parrots have shown any avitaminosis, low calcium, soft eggs or anything that would indicate any lack on their nutrition.