Fat vs. protein

[JessiMuse]

I've heard a lot of talk about high protein causing problems such as fatty liver disease, obesity, high cholesterol and more, but I'm very confused about all that. The problems mentioned are commonly linked to high calorie consumption, but I don't see how it can possibly relate to protein.

Am I just misreading information, or are they actually related somehow?

[tielfan]

Here are a couple of links on the causes of fatty liver disease from avian veterinary sources:

Clinical Avian Medicine, Chapter 15, page 4 and 5 of the pdf (444-445 according to the page numbering of the book), under the heading Hepatic Lipidosis: http://avianmedicine.net/publication_ca ... -medicine/

It says that excessive dietary fat and carbohydrates may be responsible, and that DEFICIENCY of certain dietary amino acids can cause it. Not a word about excessive amino acids.

http://www.exoticpetvet.net/dvms/fattyliver.html Now here's a dense wall of text lol. Look for the paragraph that starts with "Parrots suffering from hepatic lipidosis are typically obese." It says that seeds are high in fat and low in certain dietary amino acids, and it's implied that this is a problem.

[Wolf]

In the second link provided by tielfan, I find two statement of interest in regards to your question

The liver occupies a key position in the metabolism of carbohydrates (simple sugars, and starches such as rice, bread and potatoes, for example). The liver stores carbohydrates as glycogen. Glycogen can be formed from monosaccharides (simple sugars), from the glycerol of fat, and from amino acids that have been chemically changed (neoglycogenesis). Stored glycogen is then converted to glucose (glycogenolysis) as required by the animal to maintain blood glucose concentrations within an acceptable level. If blood glucose drops too low, it can result in seizures and damage to vital organ systems, or even death in extreme cases

One of the things that is used in the creation of glycogen in the liver is amino acids which are the components that make up proteins. And this is probably the reason that many of the links that I lost claimed that excess protein was stored in the liver as nodes of fat and therefore contributed to fatty liver disease. And also why, in part, I have said to be careful with how much protein that you feed your bird.
However there is another passage that is of primary interest and that is:

We can see that the liver is a very important organ and is responsible for many different functions in a bird. When a bird develops hepatic lipidosis, this means that the normal liver cells are gradually being filled with fat (actually large vacuoles of triglyceride fat). These abnormal cells can no longer function to perform the liver's work efficiently, and over time, the liver cells may be destroyed. As liver cells die, they are replaced with scar tissue or fibrous connective tissue. Over time, the liver function will be reduced and the bird will start showing signs of liver disease.

This is the area that I was just beginning to research when my computer crashed. I have heard of these triglycerides but had not yet found much information on its function in the body either bird or human. Since there are several types of fat stored in the liver, I need to ask which is the primary cause of fatty liver disease and this article suggests that it is not from either carbohydrates or proteins, but from the formation of triglyceride fats. I still am not sure what a triglyceride is or what its function is in the body, nor do I have any ideas as to how much is needed or how much is too much. I am afraid that I still have questions concerning this and the roles of proteins and triglycerides in the development of liver disease. I will have to come back when I have more information to share but it is a start.

[tielfan]

I'm not an expert on triglycerides either, but they are a type of fatty molecule and are the main constituent of body fat. The Mayo Clinic has a short simple explanation that won't answer any technical questions, but it does identify excess calorie consumption as a major factor in their production and makes dietary recommendations for reducing them: http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-cond ... t-20048186

Life can't be sustained without dietary amino acids, so ultimately every function in the body and every problem in the body can be traced back to them in one way or another. But that doesn't mean that dietary amino acids are the cause of a particular problem unless there is a direct observable relationship between amino acid consumption and the problem. The only major problem in birds that seems to have been linked to high protein levels is gout. I can see the reason for that - excess protein in the diet causes a rise in urea excretion, and gout is caused by uric acid deposits. Kidney disease was also suspected because the kidneys have to process the urea, but the cockatiel study has raised doubts about this since they failed to induce any kind of kidney damage with a very high protein diet. Here's a short Wikipedia section on the fate of excess protein in the human body: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_% ... onsumption Excess amino acids can be converted to glucose or ketones, which can be burned for fuel (and presumably turned into fat if not used).

But any connection between fatty liver disease and excess protein consumption isn't nearly as obvious as the connection between excess fat and carb consumption. ANY kind of excess calories in the diet can end up being stored in the body as fat, but protein is a poor source of calories compared to fat and carbohydrates, and it has other uses in the body that are more important. This link talks about the thermic effect of different energy sources in simple English: http://authoritynutrition.com/6-reasons ... a-calorie/ 100 calories of fat consumed produces 97-98 calories of usable energy; 100 calories of carbs produces 92-94 calories of usable energy; and protein produces 70-75 calories of usable energy. So you can probably see why protein isn't considered to be the main villain here. It doesn't translate into fat as successfully as other types of macronutrients do, and a lot of it is likely to be used for something else.

There are some proteins in cholesterol (lipoproteins and apoproteins), but these are proteins that are synthesized in the body to help cholesterol do its job. Cholesterol serves several vital functions in the body and is synthesized in the body for that purpose, but excessive amounts are bad. Until recently, it was thought that dietary cholesterol caused health problems for humans, but this idea was dismissed a few months ago: http://time.com/3705734/cholesterol-dietary-guidelines/ But excess calories in the diet, especially fat and carbohydrates, are still thought to be a major factor. Here's the Mayo Clinic again, telling people to reduce cholesterol by watching their fat content, eating lots of fiber, getting their Omega 3s, and adding whey protein to the diet. My response to that is "Why whey?" lol, but I didn't bother to look into it. http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-cond ... t-20045935

[tielfan]

P.S. on glucose. Glucose is a simple sugar (carbohydrate). It's basically the sole fuel for the brain and the primary source of energy for the rest of the body. Complex carbohydrates break down into glucose in the digestive tract. http://healthyeating.sfgate.com/carbohy ... -2333.html

Dietary carbohydrates are the main source of glucose, and any glucose made from leftover amino acids is trivial compared to this source. When this source of glucose runs out, the body can produce glucose from fat. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starvatio ... se#General

Grains are relatively low in protein and fat, and high in carbohydrates. Obviously most of the glucose from this source will come from the carbs. Oil seeds are higher in protein, higher in fat, and lower in carbs compared to grains. For example 100 grams of everybody's favorite villain, sunflower seed, has about 21 grams of protein, 20 grams of carbs, and 52 grams of fat. Even with this higher level of protein, it's obvious that the main contribution to the glucose supply is going to come from the carbs and fat because there's so much more of them. They convert to energy (glucose) more efficiently too, as mentioned in the last post.

[Wolf]

I don't know but it seems to me that you are trivalising some factors such as that the three main sources of energy in the body avian or human are carbohydrates, fats and protein. While you are supportive of fats and carbohydrates being of importance you are saying that the energy provided by protein is of little consequence and I do not agree. In addition to this we also know that excess protein is stored in the liver as fat. The breakdown of these fats and the amino acids that make up proteins for the purposes of using them for the energy to fuel the brain and body is done in the liver and produces as its primary by product uric acid and this is probably the uric acid that causes gout, it is filtered through the kidneys but is produced in the liver. We talk a lot about dietary proteins but we rarely consider the proteins that are manufactured right in the liver itself although it is the only organ that I am aware of that does this. I really don't know how to factor those proteins into the equation though. Still we do know that once the protein intake levels reach about 20% that their effects on the avian body becomes increasingly detrimental. 20% is the average level required for maximum growth rates in most birds and levels above this result in a decreased growth rate. There are also other detrimental effect attributed to high protein intake, I just have not listed all of them.
Since we really are at the point where we are extrapolating most of our nutritional information for humans as well as many other species of animals I am not yet ready to discount any of the information because although there are similarities we do not yet know or understand enough to know what the actual interactions are. I know that this process of extrapolation has helped to a large degree but it still only produces results of this or that may be and this may affect that to this or that degree. It takes me a long time to find the information that I am looking for and that is because most of the research may not have yet yielded results or even have been begun. This make it difficult as I am looking for research that is done on birds as it is going to be much closer to what happens in our parrots than the results of how something breaks down in a human or in a sheep. what we really have at the moment are best guesses and for that reason with so many indicators showing that high and excessive protein levels are as dangerous as not enough I have to reserve judgement as to what may or may not be of concern . At this point everything is still of the same importance. We only have best guess guidelines and while they are better than nothing they are by no means conclusive.

So far I will concede that seeds are not as high in proteins as my previous research had indicated, but that had always been suspect when the same research indicated that they were deficient in essential amino acids. I also concede that fats and carbohydrates may be more important than protein in the development of liver disease, but I do not agree that the contribution of protein levels is of little importance in the development of liver or kidney disease. I do not concede that protein levels and intake is not important in regulating the reproductive cycles of our birds or that they are not responsible to a large degree to aggression in these same birds. I am sorry that this last statement may seem a little off key on the actual topic being discussed but they are a part of the original statement that I have been making in regards to the effects of too much protein in the diet of our birds and although I will concede that protein may be of lessor importance in the development of fatty liver disease I do not agree that it is not of major importance in the development of liver disease overall or that it is not of concern in its overall effects throughout the avian body.

[tielfan]

I haven't taken the time to fully understand fat metabolism, but the gist of it is that excess calories in the diet get turned into body fat and this process has an impact on the amount of triglycerides and cholesterol floating around in the bloodstream. Too much is bad.

I've never seen any information about how much protein is used as an energy source, but I assume that the lack of talk about it as an indicator that it's not considered to be significant. Assumptions can always be overturned with evidence of course. Low-carb high-protein diets are promoted as a weight loss technique for humans.

Traditionally fat has gotten most of the blame for high cholesterol and other problems, but in recent years they've started recognizing the problems with carbs too. It's possible that we might start hearing about protein calories someday, just as we started hearing about carbs, but it's not happening now. At least not anywhere that I've ever seen.

In any case, the protein in plant foods comes in a package with a lot of carbohydrates and/or fat. The primary use of carbs and fats is for energy production and they make up most of the weight of the seed/grain, as illustrated by this chart: http://www.littlefeatheredbuddies.com/i ... seeds1.jpg

So it seems safe to assume that fat and/or carbs are the main source of calories in plant foods. It also seems safe to assume that a significant percentage of the protein content will be used for body maintenance not for energy. Just how much is used for what purpose will probably be determined largely by how much complete protein can be assembled from that day's total amino acid intake.

The fats and carbs are currently the major focus of concern about diet-related fatty liver disease and other diet-related problems like obesity and heart disease in both birds and humans. The biggest concern about protein and birds (according to what I've seen from the veterinary/avian nutrition community) is getting enough complete protein without blowing the fat/carb calorie budget. Adding beans/legumes to the diet will improve the overall protein quality, but they contain a lot of carbs and have a calorie count similar to grains and grain-type birdseed. You still have to watch the overall calorie intake in the diet.

Due to my inability to find any credible sources blaming protein consumption for fatty liver disease, obesity, high cholesterol, heart disease, high hormone levels, and aggression, it will be up to you to provide backup showing that it does.

[Wolf]

Yes, I am understanding that to be the case and that is why ( partly) that I am working to rebuild my data base, It took me over three years to build it the first time, but I now have the advantage of having a better idea of where and how to search for the information,

By the way, most of the cholesterol is manufactured in the liver itself. I do have supporting documentation for this, however it is human based and although it should be pretty much the same in our birds, I can only speculate about this and am looking for supporting documentation of this in birds, preferably in parrots, but...

[tielfan]

Cholesterol being manufactured in the liver sounded right to me, but then I looked at this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cholesterol#Biosynthesis

"About 20–25% of total daily cholesterol production occurs in the liver; other sites of higher synthesis rates include the intestines, adrenal glands, and reproductive organs."

Shows how much I know lol. But it IS just a quickie Wikipedia check and better sources might say something different.

Here's something that might be useful. I went looking for information on the energy density of fat, carbs and protein and found this chart: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_ener ... ion_labels

Then I did some calculations with our old friend sunflower seed. 100 grams of sunflower contains 51g of fat, 20g of carbs, and 21g of protein. I multiplied these values by the kcal/g numbers in the Wikipedia link, and came up with way too many total calories. So I multiplied these numbers by the thermic effect factors mentioned in a previous post, using the midpoint values of 97.5% for fat, 93% for carbs, and 72.5% for protein.

The result was that 100 grams of sunflower contains 448 fat calories, 74 carb calories, and 61 protein calories (assuming that all of the protein is burned for energy and not utilized for other purposes). This totals up to 583 calories and the listed value for 100g of sunflower is 584 calories at http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/nut ... cts/3076/2 (you have to hit the dropdown box to get the values for 100g).

It looks like this is a valid way to calculate the calories from different sources in a food.

[tielfan]

Oh hey, I missed something in the cholesterol biosynthesis link at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cholesterol#Biosynthesis It says that ALL animal cells manufacture cholesterol for their use, with relative production rates varying by cell type and organ function. But apparently the liver is the most active production site. This makes sense since the liver is the body's main chemical factory.