Fat vs. protein

[Wolf]

I am about done for the night if all goes well, but will try and read these tomorrow. Thank you for the information.

[Pajarita]

I've heard a lot of talk about high protein causing problems such as fatty liver disease, obesity, high cholesterol and more, but I'm very confused about all that. The problems mentioned are commonly linked to high calorie consumption, but I don't see how it can possibly relate to protein.

Am I just misreading information, or are they actually related somehow?

They are, indeed, related. I am giving you this link because although it's meant for humans, the process it describes in simple language (excess protein becomes fat) is the same for birds. http://health.howstuffworks.com/wellnes ... works3.htm

This link explains proteins and fats in more depth: http://www.visionlearning.com/en/librar ... roteins/62

The other thing that you need to taken into consideration is that, when it comes to birds natural diets, protein and fat almost always go hand in hand because, with the exception of grains (which by and large were not really a big part of parrots natural diets -the cultivation of grains in large scale is a man-made phenomenon), they both came in the same package: seeds and nuts. We now use beans as a source of high protein/low fat food but they are not really part of any parrot natural diet. Of course, if we talk about processed food, like pellets, you can pretty much get any levels of anything you want...

[tielfan]

I went looking for information on the amount of protein that's used for other purposes and not burned for energy, and found the concept of biological value (BV). The BV estimates the percentage of dietary protein that's incorporated into the body's proteins. Actual BV is influenced by individual circumstances, but there are general-purpose BV estimates for specific foods viewed in isolation. It looks like the BV of seeds, grains and beans falls roughly into the 60-80% range, with more of them probably closer to the bottom of the range than the top. It's not clear to me what happens to the other 20-40%, whether it's turned into energy or excreted.

But let's go back to the previous sunflower seed example and assume a worst-case scenario, where 60% of the crude protein is used for body maintenance purposes and the other 40% is used for energy. This leaves us with 24 protein calories, 74 carb calories, and 448 fat calories, for a total of 546 calories. The protein calories are about 4% of the total calories in our 100 grams of sunflower seed. Sunflower is fairly high-protein as seeds and grains go, with 21 grams of it in 100g of seed.

Here are some links on biological value:
http://blog.fooducate.com/2014/11/12/wh ... important/
http://www.food-info.net/uk/protein/bv.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_value
http://tinyurl.com/ha8pwru

[tielfan]

It seems to be generally agreed that protein is used for energy only when there's not enough fat and carbs to do the job. I can provide links if you like, but it's easy-reading stuff not scientific papers so the accuracy is questionable. FWIW it does sound right to me.

It also seems to be generally agreed that a "wretched excess" level of protein consumption is likely to turn into fat, because there are limits to how fast the body can process dietary protein for other purposes. Here are a couple of links that talk about protein digestion, from sources that are not the world's most authoritative but sound like they have a reasonably decent idea of what they're talking about:
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/dear-mar ... z3yTEbjaRz

http://www.muscleforlife.com/the-truth- ... ld-muscle/

The next question is what's the wretched excess level. Here's an article saying that consuming protein as 25-30% of the diet is good for weight loss because it boosts metabolism and reduces appetite in humans, with links to scientific studies to back it up: http://authoritynutrition.com/how-much-protein-per-day/

Scientific studies are sometimes misused to support an agenda. There's a whiff of the paleo in that article and I haven't dug into it to see if anything is being misrepresented. But their statements are consistent with what I've seen elsewhere about 10-35% being a reasonable level for humans, and the 20-30% level doesn't seem to give the avian medical community the heebie-jeebies. So I would guess that 'wretched excess' starts somewhere beyond the 30% level. http://www.webmd.com/diet/healthy-kitch ... ch-protein

[tielfan]

I've asked for some direct input from a professional source. Someone asked about high-protein related disease in birds on the Nutrition for Pets Facebook group at https://www.facebook.com/groups/1393577 ... 718752061/ and I tacked on my own question about the issues we're discussing here. You have to be a member of the group to see the thread but everyone is welcome to join.

This group is owned by Dr. Scott Echols, a prominent avian veterinarian who wrote the kidney disease chapter in the Clinical Avian medicine textbook. He's exceptionally well informed about avian nutrition. We might have to wait a week or so for an answer since he's busy and doesn't visit the group every day, but he's good about answering all questions when he does show up.

[Wolf]

I have not read all of the links provided, but have read a large portion of them and do not find " wretched excess". Please define this term.

[tielfan]

I found a link from The National Academies Institute of Medicine Food and Nutrition Board stating that 10-35% protein is the acceptable macronutrient distribution range for an adult human, so wretched excess would be something in excess of 35% for humans. 35% is a LOT of protein and there are probably circumstances where it would be too much, but it's officially considered safe.
It's on page 6 of this pdf: http://iom.nationalacademies.org/Activi ... s%2014.pdf

I did some more calculations on protein calories in plant foods. I found that NutritionData gave the number of maximum calories from carbs, fat and protein so I used their numbers. After adjusting for the expected 60% use for body maintenance, most seeds and grains had protein calories that were about 5% of the total calories. I had expected the oil seeds to have a higher percent, since they tend to have higher levels of protein than grain seeds. But they also have much higher levels of fat (which raises the total calories), so the proportion of protein calories to other calories remained the same.. Beans were higher, having 11-12% net calories from protein.

[tielfan]

P.S. Notice in the National Academies link that the 10-35% range is a percent of total energy, not the percent of weight in the total diet. I'm not quite sure what that really means. Considering that fat has twice as much calories as protein and is utilized more efficiently, it sort of looks like you could eat 70% protein and 30% fat as measured by weight, and still be considered in the safe range (carbohydrates aren't technically required in the diet at all). But this is obviously absurd, and I'm happy enough with the upper limit of 35% as measured by food weight not by calorie content.

[Wolf]

I am apparently not being clear by asking for the definition of the term " wretched excess". So let me try another way. Where did you find this term? Perhaps its definition can be found there.

[tielfan]

It's not a technical term, it's just the way I describe the situation when something has been taken to an extreme. For humans, extreme consumption can be defined as more than 35% protein, since that's the top limit of the acceptable range.