Baby Green Wing macaw refusing formula at 11 weeks old

[Pajarita]

Ahhh, well, actually, there is no way anybody (not even the best avian vet in the world) diagnose a bird with any certainty without bloodwork (and, very often, even with it!). But what he gave you (wide spectrum antibiotic and the recommendation for betacarotene-rich food - I would give him sweet potatoes as well as the pumpkin) is not going to hurt the bird. The concern is that he might have something that is NOT a bacterial infection and that the antibiotic is not really going to solve anything... In any case, keep a sharp eye on him, weight him every morning at the same time (like before the first feeding, for example) to ensure he is gaining steadily, watch his poop carefully, keep him always warm (and, for parrots, it means REAL warm) and use a humidifier (unless the weather is naturally humid) and offer him two kinds of soft food, served fresh and warm twice a day.

[chad84]

Hi guys. Just an update. The diarrhea has stopped but his urine is still YELLOW for about 3 weeks now. Still having problems feeding him. No feeding response and he spits back out 10% to 50% of the food we feed him. Food is 25% carrot puree (gerber) and Kaytee hand feed formula. He very active climbing up our 7 ft indoor security gate, couches and anything really high up. Flapping up a storm too all day long.

The only disturbing thing is his weight loss. Friday morning he weighed 1000g and Sunday morning (today) he weighs 945g. 2 weeks ago he weighed 1050g. So that's a total of 10% weight loss from 2 weeks ago to now. He feels less 'meaty'. Unsure if this is fledging weight loss or illness weight loss or a combination of both. Either way I am worried. The vet told me that I should only be concerned if it stretches to 25% weight loss then I have to bring him in. He said that because he is only have 75% formula, fledging and is ill, his weight loss will be more than normal.

Waiting for him to poop so I can show it to you all and also email it to the new Vet I found.

[chad84]

Good night everyone
Robert has been flapping and flapping and climbing so much. He then came and begged to hang out, so I picked him up and gave him 2 hrs of TLC tonight and then he ate... wait for it... 110 ml of carrot puree and formula mixed.

So without further wait, here is the poop you have been waiting for!
Faeces is almost well formed. Could be a little more solid.
Urates are white.
Urine is yellow. Not cloudy anymore, just yellow.



I have been reading about a product on amazon to help detox the liver called Aloe Detox. Many reviews state that it helped their birdie. My plan is to run the course of antibiotics (10 days), then wait a week after that, till its out of his system and then do 1 week of Aloe Detox (3 times a day). The maybe do another week of detox with a few days in between.

Tell me what you think.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0019L ... _i=desktop

[Wolf]

The reason for the yellow coloring can only be due to the involvement of the liver in your birds condition. I have been digging around trying to find out what I could and it appears that the majority of a birds vitamin a storage is done in the liver. The reason why the vet has put your bird on the mix of handfeeding formula and and carrot puree is to increase the beta catotenes which are the precursor of Vitamin a and the safest way to increase the level of this vitamin. The level of vitamin a that are contained in the blood are not adequate to measure the vitamin a in the birds system, according to my avian medical text that requires a liver biopsy, as noted by the following excerpt from my medical book.

Measuring Vitamin A
Approximately 90% of total-body vitamin A is contained
in the liver.46 Storage levels of 2-5 IU vitamin A/g liver are
deemed to be adequate.46 Plasma retinol does not
change dramatically with marginal vitamin A status, and
reduced levels are generally not detected until animals
reach a severe deficiency. It is not adequate to evaluate
vitamin A status from blood samples. Liver biopsies are
recommended.

It appears to me that the vet you have been going to has run into this situation before and as quickly as he diagnosed this I would say that he has dealt with this on several occasions. I would however ask him about the use of a liver tonic such as 100% organic alcohol free milk thistle for your bird to help cleanse the liver of toxins and reduce the stress on it.

[Pajarita]

Hmmmm, a couple of comments on both your posting, Chad, and Wolf's.

It seems to me that the doctor diagnosed the avitaminosis A from the blunting of the choanal papillae in the bird's beak - a quick and very effective way that all avian vets follow, by the way. His approach of increasing betacarotene-rich food (pumpkin, carrots, sweet potatoes or yams) is the correct one (you do NOT want to give the bird too much vitamin A in its final form because it ends up as fatty nodules in the liver) and very effective, in my personal opinion and experience (it's exactly what I do and it has worked for me every time). His antibiotic prescription would take care of any bacterial infection caused by it BUT yeast (fungal - usually but not necessarily candidadiasis) infections are also very common when birds have low vitamin A and he is not taking anything for that. Babies are particularly susceptible to them because their immune system is not completely developed and, as fungus is EVERYWHERE in nature and the ONLY way to keep it from creating an infection is to have a strong immune system that keeps the growth under control, babies end up getting them from the slightest problem. They are not easy to diagnose because, sometimes (especially in babies), the immune system does not react the way it would with a bacterial infection by drastically elevating the white cell count and because it's easy to get a false negative on the tests so, in most cases, it's done through observable symptoms.

Now, yellow urine can be caused by several different things and without any other symptom, it is a clear sign of either liver or kidney malfunction but unless the baby was born with severe congenital problems or has a serious disease (like psittacosis, for example, which affects both kidneys and liver) it usually points in another direction. Besides, you have all the other symptoms: parents abandoning baby, weight loss, lack of appetite, labored breathing and bad plumage and, if you put them all together, in my personal opinion and experience, they can only point to a bad fungal infection. A fungal infection that is not been treated and which is not going to get better with antibiotic, better diet or any liver cleanser and/or tonic you could give the bird.

Mind you, this doesn't mean that you should not use the Aloe Vera Detox formula, the milk thistle, the better diet, etc. It only means that these things will only be any good if you are also giving the bird an antifungal because babies cannot normally fight fungal infections on their own.

I STRONGLY suggest you go back to your vet and ask him to give you an antifungal, too - I doubt he will not do it because the antibiotic/antifungal protocol is the 'go to' of all avian vets when they are not sure of what is going on.

[Wolf]

Another thing that was mentioned in my text was that there was also a risk of coccidiosis as maybe being a factor in the development of this condition. It was mentioned because many handfeeding formulas contain an overabundance of Vitamin A although it may be degraded to some degree and that coccidiosis also prevents the bird from using the vitamin A creating a low level of vitamin A.

While I did learn that low levels of Vitamin A does impair the immune system, I failed in considering the possibility of a fungal infection, thank you, Pajarita, for bring this to the forefront.

[chad84]

Robert flew for the first time this morning. I let him out around 6am and wife and I started preparing his formula and carrots. He climbed to the top of his cage in the living room which is 2.5 ft high. We were in the kitchen, about 15 ft away. All of a sudden there was a gush of wind over us and down came Super Robert from 7 ft high and 15 ft away. He also landed so gracefully. Gave him much praise. After that he had a whopping 120 ml of formula. Made formula at 110 f and a little thinner and he drank it all.

For those wondering, this is what I mix into his formula... makes up 25% of what he eats. Says no iron. Lemme know if to continue using this.

[Wolf]

From time to time there will be occasions when one or more of us disagree with a given vets opinion, methods or even diagnosis, but even in these instances it is best to follow your vets instructions at least until you can get another opinion from another vet. We are not vets, we may do a lot of research and study, but we are not vets.

Now that Robert has flown his eating should return to normal or even with him eating a little more. This is the time in his development that his parrot parents would start teaching him all about food, what it should look like, how to find it and what and how to eat it. I am sure that his parents would not begin this process until he is better able to fly the distances that he would need to fly to reach the feeding grounds with the rest of the flock, but we are not as good at teaching these things to him as his parents would have been. So it is time to begin teaching him all about foods as this is the ideal time for it and his mind is all primed to learn about foods. He will still be needing to be given his handfeeding formula as he will not yet be able to get adequate nutrition from eating just adult foods.

[Pajarita]

Actually, I am not disagreeing with the vet. I just think that given the symptoms, the age of the baby, the conditions it was 'found' and the fact that no bloodwork was done, it pays to be extra careful and cover all loose ends - thus, the recommendation for the addition of an antifungal.

But, if he is eating more, gaining weight and his symptoms are disappearing, he is getting better (and YAAAYYYY for that!).

The carrot puree is good but, like Wolf said, he needs to be fed a larger variety and offer soft foods to eat on its own in a regular basis.

[chad84]

Glad the news pleased you guys.

Just fed him another 120 ml. That's 5 meals so far. His stomach is emptying so fast. Usually takes 8hrs now its empty in like 5 - 6 hrs. He came to me and just sat there looking at me and when I checked his crop it was empty so I fed him.

One thing though, i saw him throw up a little food a few minutes after I fed him on 2 of the 5 feedings of 120 ml. I did some research and they said the antibiotics makes him nauseous. Felt sad to see it. Wasn't much just an inch in diameter.

His current weight for today is 960g.

I noticed he stall has laboured breath. But not all the time. Its mostly when he has been flapping alot. But I have also seen it after feeding him and sometimes at rest.