Diet Conversion Journey

[beakycheekie]

I totally agree with you Pajarita!! That's what I love about this forum. Even if we don't agree with each other we can inform and express and hopefully encourage each other to do research and make our own informed decisions. It's so fun!
Thanks for the diet advice, too!

[Wolf]

Preventing arguments and keeping the peace is a real pain in the neck, but it does not have to impair intellectual advancement, but it may require that the people involved think of a better way of stating their opinions, that, of course is only true when it is the manner in which the opinion was stated that is what results in the argument.

Sometimes there is no way to keep the peace other than to just end the argument and that is not always the best thing to do. Sometimes the only thing that can be done is to try to allow both sides to say their opinion and then if the next post or two show that it is starting to degenerate into a fight to end it there, but at least both sides have been able to state the base opinion.

It would be so much easier to learn from each other if people did not wear their emotions on their sleeves, so to speak. In the course of my lifetime things have gone from the general opinion that sometimes we don't like the way something was said, but that this is normal so don't worry about it and accept that you are not going to like the way that everyone says things to today when it is hard to be able to hold a conversation with others because it seems like everyone is just looking for some pretext to be offended. And you know what? If someone wants to be offended then even if you manage to avoid it a time or two they will still find some way to be offended.

Yep, it is a real pain in the neck for everyone.

[beakycheekie]

Yes, agreed Wolf! I normally keep to myself and try to not be a know it all, but I do enjoy talking about things that I'm passionate about and interested in and I like a good debate! I also really enjoy talking to other people who are more knowledgeable about something than I am because I like to learn stuff! I saw a post on The Dodo, which if you're not familiar, is a website on Facebook that publishes cute animal stories, you know, the kind that makes everybody go "Aww" and "Omg so cute!". Anyway, this particular post was about an orphaned raccoon baby that a family found and turned into a pet. It made me mad, it was not cute it is wrong. As a wildlife professional and educator I felt compelled to include a comment of my own amongst the dozens of other comments of people who were saying "Omg, so cute, I want a pet raccoon!" I simply said "a raccoon is a wild animal, unlike a dog or a cat it is not domesticated and is not meant to be a pet. Please, if you find orphaned wildlife contact a wildlife rehabilitator." That is all. I did not say "you people are all idiots" or anything offensive. H o l y c o w. You should have seen all the hateful comments I received from people. Name calling! I was astounded at how hateful people could be and blown away that my comment would even have that vehement of a reaction. It just goes to show that some people don't want to have any kind of discussion, education, disagreement or expression of a view that is different from their own. Like Wolf said, sometimes it's best just to end the discussion and move on.

[Wolf]

That is great to know, both Pajarita and I like a good debate, but many people today just don't seem to be able to handle a debate and so here on the forum what started as a comment that sparked a possibly great debate, quickly deteriorates and turns ugly, much to my dismay. I like being in a good debate and I enjoy reading a good debate as very often one cane learn so much more in a single good debate than by several months of research.

I would love to have more people here who are into debates. Just before I joined this forum I read a couple of debates and since with many of the other forums did not allow for even just a disagreement or just barely allowed one I joined this one. Then I became the moderator because of all of the spam that Michael just could not keep up with and then at about the same time I decided that despite having joined several forums that I was not learning enough about parrots, quickly enough to suit me so I scaled back on the forums that I was going to and started answering peoples questions as best that I could. I knew that if I could not give the right answer that I would go looking for the answer so that I could answer and if I still didn't manage to get it right, I had enough confidence in the members to correct my errors.

I wish more people would start answering other peoples question here on the forum. I keep inviting the other members to participate more, asking them to speak up and answer some of the question or if they don't feel confident enough for that to share more of their living with a parrot stories.

Ah well I digress on occasion, my bad.

[Pajarita]

Well, the fact that Michael has always been for a good debate and 100% pro flight (and not one to sugarcoat his opinion of clipping, either ) was what drew me to this site. I find the 'tame' sites a waste of time - nobody learns anything on them because nobody takes a strong position on any issue so they all end up been 'everything is wonderful' sites (You wanna clip? Go ahead and do it. You wanna free-feed protein? It's OK. You wanna keep the bird up at night? No problem. You wanna breed them? OK. etc. etc).

But, Wolf, I don't know if the role of moderator is different on this site than it is on other sites but keeping the peace has never been one of its functions (I used to have my own site and me and the other two owners did a lot of research on this subject). All moderators do is monitor content for rule breaking (which, on this site, are very few, namely: "Disrespect, insults, and personal attacks") and, if it happens, contact the member through a PM with a warning. Michael doesn't even believe in banning, blocking, locking and deleting because, as he puts it, they "hinder learning" (and I agree 100%!).

[Wolf]

Not entirely true and I was asked by Michael to find a way to cut down on the arguments, which is keeping the peace, because he was losing too many new members.
I enjoy a good debate and know from experience that they can be done without turning into arguments where people just end up insulting each other. And although he does not like banning people, I have more than once had to refuse to ban someone when he suggested that I should do so.

I am sorry if my activities in stopping the arguments has taken some of the enjoyment out of the forum for some people, but on the other hand I am happy that more of our newer members are finding it to be more comfortable for them to ask questions and to share with us about their birds.

I do not feel that clipping a birds wings is a good option for the bird unless there is a valid medical reason for it, but I do feel that if learning about clipping in its less severe forms will allow the parrot to be out of its cage because some people just can't deal with the bird and just keep it locked up, then perhaps we should at least listen and concentrate more on teaching than condemning the practice. Nothing is ever as black and white as it appears to be. I am not objectionable to anyone sharing their views of free flight, clipping, feeding pellets or any other of the hot topics. I do not have to agree with what the other person is saying nor do I find that I can't voice my disagreement, but I should have the courtesy and respect to at least listen to them. It isn't hard to do that. Both sides can present their views and the other members will decide what they are going to do with that information. They are going to do that anyway and I would just as soon that they do it here where there is a better chance of showing them why the bird needs to be unclipped than for them to not discuss it because they are afraid that they are going to be jumped on if they don't do as the majority do. If they are afraid to talk about it then they are not going to learn and then we have defeated our own purpose.

[Pajarita]

Then I guess that this site and Michael's opinions have changed a lot since it first started -and we are talking a complete 180, too! And that is his prerogative, of course, but, in my personal opinion, I think the rules should be changed or a new mission statement should be posted. Mostly because most people who belong to other sites will find the public paternalistic attitude vastly different from what is out there (I don't know of any other site that has a moderator role like yours). Some would even find it offensive... Personally I think that, for the purpose of educating, it's completely counterproductive because which adult would be willing to engage in a debate when one is going to have a Daddy figure arbitrarily deciding what is acceptable and what is not and telling the 'children' -in front of everybody- to stop it or he will turn the car around?

Mind you, Wolf, my comments are not against you. Personally, I don't envy you the position you are in. I don't mind been referee to my children and grandchildren arguments but I would not do it with adult strangers if they paid me for it!

[Wolf]

So why is it not acceptable to say lets quit argueing when, personal attacks, insults, name calling and sarcastic remarks are made Since they have nothing to do with debating? Or why is it unacceptable to listen carefully to opinions of others whether you agree with them or not as long as you can also state yours?

It was not all that long ago that you were asking for these things right along with the rest of the forum, I tried to not get involved with these things but you and several others insisted that I take on the full moderator duties. To date I do not believe that I have prevented anyone from talking about anything that they choose to, I have only asked that they be civil, there is not one thing that anyone can say rudely that can't be said better in a nice manner, at least none that I am aware of.

I don't know what other moderators are doing as I am not following them, but if the majority of those people who post here want to tell me that what I am doing is wrong and they want me to quit it, I will be more than happy to resign from being a moderator, I did not want to do any more than help remove the spam in the first place.

[seagoatdeb]

I would never compare you Wolf to any other moderator in any other group. You do the best you can, and thats all anyone can do. There are hot topics, thats for sure. I learned a long time ago that any currrent belief is the belief of the time, and parrots are individuals ands need different methods. People also grow and change, and groups change and evolve too.

Although we are all different people, there are members that have such big flocks of rehomed/rescue parrots that they are close to being a sanctuary. There are members with small flocks that can travel and bring them places and it works for them. There are new members just learning, and the vast majority of people learn and enjoy a group if they are not hit with too much info at one time or heavily criticized the first time they post. There are pellets out there that are organic with no added colours or artifical ingredients, and as long as you have enough soft moist foods to compensate for the dry, I think it can be a good option for some parrot owners with certain parrots.

Debates are good if people debate without belittling anyone, sticking to the rules of debating. But everything does not have to be a debate. Some people post not wanting a debate at all. I have never been an admin of a forum, but I am an admin of many facebook groups and the dynamics can be much the same. I have seen fights break out between those that clip and those that dont, but I have also seen groups that tolerate each other. Groups that specialze in your species or family of parrot are great too, and I have learned a lot through them.

I have noticed with Gaugan specifically, the happier she is, the better she will eat and if I give in to her occasionally and let her eat more of what she is determined to eat, she will then eat better for me after that too. Sunny just wants to eat what everyone else is eating, he is so easy that way, just fit right in. Gaugan is very happy today, she was determined to chew up one of my cabinets, I took her off, tapped the edges of the cabinet and then covered it with cloth and let her back on it, she is chewing and happy that I let her have her go at it. she can chew the cloth, but cant get the pieces of the wood off. She keeps giving me soft looks an murmurs I love you "stuff", thats what she does when she appreciates my behaviour.....lol

[beakycheekie]

All this conversation about debates have turned into a debate! Haha, it's all good, I'm glad we can discuss stuff with each other. I'm the one that started the conversation about debates and expressing oneself online, etc. any way. Again, I really appreciate everyone's input and insights.
Back to the topic this is titled after, nothing has really changed diet-wise with my birds. The budgies have steadfastly refused Napoleon's Seed Mix, which I had mixed with Living World parakeet seed mix. The LW mix has a lot of different kinds of seeds so I am happy with just giving them that for seeds and I don't think I'll waste anymore of the Napoleon's on them. Like I said before, my elderly male tiel Herman LOVES Napoleon's and has never eaten better than he is now so that is a success. But the girl tiels still refuse to eat it. It's mixed with another tiel seed mix that they were used to but they just pick around the Napoleon's and leave it in the bowl. I've been doing this for about the last month and they still refuse to eat it. I feel like it shouldn't take this long for them to start eating it, especially because it's just seeds! I'm not even trying to get them to eat fresh foods yet! I can only imagine how hard that's going to be