Diet Conversion Journey

[seagoatdeb]

Hi seagoatdeb, thanks for replying to this, I was hopeing that you would, as I think that you have a lot of very good nutritional information as regards both humans and parrots,

I don't think that I can buy into your evolutionary argument Beginning with the fact that in evolutionary terms we have not been here for more than a minute or so, ourselves, but that part is neither here nor there and I really don't particularly want to have us begin a discussion here on our ideas about evolution. I just wanted to thank you for showing up and adding to the information here on parrot nutrition. Thanks.

Thanks Wolf! To make it easy, my points for parrot feeding and why I am cautious about feeding large amounts of legumes, beans and grains:

1.Our parrots, do not have cooked legumes, beans and grains as a part of their diet in the wild, and their bodies are NEW at eating these foods.

2.There are no studies on the effect of feeding such high amounts of legumes, beans and grains to parrots in the long term.

[Wolf]

Thanks, I have no problem with these points, first of all because I do not think that any studies of this nature have been done. But I must say that the same must also be said of almost everything that we do feed our birds. Not one single parrot that I am aware of gets to eat the diet that they evolved to eat. That leaves us with trying to match up the nutritional benefits of what we do give them in comparison to what they evolved to eat. It also places it on us to try and limit the types and amounts of any nutritional toxins in the foods that we have available to feed them.

Although there are some of us that try to do all of the research needed to provide the best possible diet for our birds, the vast majority of those with parrots rely on the feed companies to do this research for us, and that includes many of the vets.

Since I do not feed my birds the same as you feed yours, it is obvious that I don't agree with all of your viewpoints in this area, but that is not me saying that you are wrong, because you may be right, I don't know, but there is still a lot that I don't know. I do enjoy reading about your thoughts on parrot nutrition and I do try to use it to help me with my own research. Again thank you for contributing to this discussion.

[seagoatdeb]

Mostly what concerns me, is the finding nutrition from different food groups than what was natural. Gaugans diet in the wild consisted of mostly acai berrys, and nuts, with various greens. so I stick with those food groups, since there are a lot of similarities with fruits and veggies, seeds and nuts. Some greens and night shades have more toxins, so they are limited too. Green Bean pods are fed more freely, because the legume toxin is in the seeds. Thanks again for your information Wolf on Meyers diets in the wild, it has been a lot of help.

Other food may have similar nutrients to the wild ones from other food groups but they contain anti nutrients, and toxins, that the parrots did not eat in the wild. What will the heath effects from these toxins be if fed for 30 years? The anti nutrients and toxins in grains concern me the most with parrots. Although seeds and nuts contain some toxins, they are natural to parrots. Low levels of these food groups that arent natural dont concern me, it is the high level mixes.

I research all the time, and i certainly welcome more research from anyone, because you are right Wolf, most research is not being done and all we can contribute helps. I am hoping this post provokes thought, and starts more research happening. Gaugan is almost 18 and i want her to stay healthy and happy for many years to come. It has been a long process to get her diet as varied as I have it. As she gets older, she is trying more foods than ever before.

[Wolf]

I really can't imagine that none of the parrots that we have did not eat grains in the wild, although I can't say how much of their diets may have included grains. Not all of the grains, even the ones that we eat, are cereal grains so I would imagine that these are the ones that the birds that live in areas that are a mix of grasslands and forested land would have eaten, but I really can't rule out even some of the cereal grains although I think that the cereal grains may have mostly been eaten by larger four footed vegetarian animals. I mostly try to avoid the ones that contain the highest levels of toxins although I do include some of those in which the toxins can be neutralized. I doubt that I will ever be able to completely eliminate all of the toxic elements from their foods, but I don't think that the birds did either. I think that they had other ways of purging and controlling the buildup of toxic elements contained in their food, such as the so called clay licks that certain species of parrots frequent in the wild. There is just so much yet to learn and at my age time grows short.

[galeriagila]

Hey, Pajarita...
I recall reading that Patagonians (the Greater, I suppose) are disliked in their native lands because they raid and destroy crops. Do you have any idea what those crops are? Would be interesting to know what those wild parrots want!

[Pajarita]

All conures in South America are considered agricultural pests and the reason for this is that they eat the fruit and grain crops (so, yes, wild parrots DO eat grains -as much as they can find, as a matter of fact). It was the spread of man cultivation that made a bird that was doing perfectly fine on its own natural habitat become an 'agricultural pest'. The large fields of grains provided such ample food that they proliferated with the consequence that more food = more birds = more crop destruction = their classification as 'agricultural pests'.

Mid Argentina where the nominate species (the one you have, Gail) lives as well as the conlara (called Loro Barranquero Oscuro by the locals) is BIG on agriculture. Their three main crops are wheat, corn and soybeans (but no animal eats soybeans in the wild) - in a lesser degree they also produce sorghum, rice, barley and sunflower seeds and the patagonians eat all of them (except soy, of course). Wild Patagonians are known for eating fields of corn and wheat when it comes to grains and, on the fruit side, figs (Quakers LOVE figs, too - we had a fig tree in my parents summer house back garden and we had to fight them for the ripe figs!)

[galeriagila]

Pajarita, I LOVE learning every factoid you know about wild Rickeybirds! I have never known anybody with the personal knowledge and experiences such as you! The stuff you tell me just makes me thump my forehead and say "Oh, snap". For example, the RB loses his mind over figs! We don't always have fresh ones, but he likes the dried ones just fine. Also plums and prunes. One other thing I've always wondered about... when he gets spinach leaves (which he does, a lot, because it's my favorited veggie) he prefers the stems to the leaf! Always has. His other huge favorite is corn, but I guess almost all parrots love that.

[seagoatdeb]

The parrots in the wild would be great to do studies on to find out the affects of suddenly eating so much grain because of mans crops. We coud see what affect it had on them and compare it with other wild, that are not eating that much grain. That would be great info to have. I have googled to see if there are any studies on that, but cant find anything.

The only studies i can find is the detremental affect that feeding grain has caused to the cows that are being used for food, so this may not apply to parrots but i will just include this link because it talks about the affect to the cows health when being put on a high grain diet when they naturally ate greens, and the greens of grass. Cows are a mammal, but are vegetarian, so it may have some relevance.

http://www.grass-fed-solutions.com/grassfed-beef.html

[seagoatdeb]

Pajarita, I LOVE learning every factoid you know about wild Rickeybirds! I have never known anybody with the personal knowledge and experiences such as you! The stuff you tell me just makes me thump my forehead and say "Oh, snap". For example, the RB loses his mind over figs! We don't always have fresh ones, but he likes the dried ones just fine. Also plums and prunes. One other thing I've always wondered about... when he gets spinach leaves (which he does, a lot, because it's my favorited veggie) he prefers the stems to the leaf! Always has. His other huge favorite is corn, but I guess almost all parrots love that.

Figs are called one of the super fruits, and they are amazing. Fig is the only fruit that has the flower on the inside. The stem of the spinach has less toxins and that may be your RB loves it so much. Corn is liked by most parrots and most human chiildren too, and a lot of other animals so there must be something about it that appeals to all. It isnt rich in nutrition like some other foods.

[galeriagila]

Well, thank you, Ms. Deb!

That was pretty much all new to me! RB is so disinterested in the spinach leaves that I often just give him the stems! Anybody watching me would think I'm awful, taking the good parts and giving him the scraps...
Well, I do toss a leaf in now and then, just to see if he wants it, but it's rare that he'll have a bite.

I think corn is the comfort food of veggies!