Swollen liver?

[mmeager]

Hi all, once again I am looking to pick your brains! This is lengthy and aimed at experienced bird owners.
Buddy, our IRN has been really sick. This is our first experience with a sick bird, and to be honest we are worried as hell.
I am not seeking solutions or medical advice as such, just your thoughts, ideas, and experience, and hopefully a little insight as to what may have gone wrong.

Here is the story so far. I should add that Buddy is around 6 months old.

Ok, Tues 29th 3rd.
We noticed that Buddy was not really himself, its hard to explain, it wasn't like he was doing anything different, or anything that was of concern. He just wasn't himself, perhaps the best description would be he wasn't as active as usual, he is normally very active!! We put it down to the fact that he just might have been having an off day. He was still eating normally.

Wed 30th.
Buddy was still not himself, probably a bit worse, he still got excited when we got home, was still eating normally, but not dancing and showing off as much as he normally does, wasn't really chatting much. When left alone he sat on his perch all fluffed up, he seemed sleepy. Now we were actually beginning to get worried about him, but still thought it may have been a temporary thing.

Thurs 31st.
No difference in Buddy at all, if anything he was probably worse, even more quiet, and looking more sleepy, but still eating. Now we were concerned, but didn't want to jump the gun so to speak. And being honest, financially we were in trouble, we already knew we wouldn't make it through the month, and would have to seek financial help from family. (we get paid monthly, both the wife and myself).

Fri 1st.
we got home from work, and Buddy was definitely wrong, he was so sleepy, literally drifting off to sleep every now and then. His feathers very ruffled and puffed out. He seemed off balance, he was still moving around his cage a little, trying to eat, but not much. He ended up going to the corner at the bottom of his cage, and just sitting there. So that was it, we called the Avarian immediately, and made an after hours appointment.

The vet checked Buddy out thoroughly, was a lengthy consultation. We went through diet, and she couldn't see any real issues there. His poo was normal, and nothing came up in tests of his poo. He had x-rays and the only thing that was abnormal was a swollen liver. The vet suggested that it could be chlamydia. and he was given an injection, as well as blood tests taken for that.
Buddy stayed with the Avarian Fri, Sat, and Sun night. The blood test for chlamydia came back negative. He seemed to improve, and the vet said she was happy for him to come home with us on Monday, so long as he was eating ok. She wasn't sure what was wrong, but was 75% sure he would improve further on the liver tonic she had prescribed for medication. And wanted to see him again in 14 days.

So, Buddy was eating ok, and did come home with us on the Monday. He was slightly underweight, but only by a few grams. After his trauma that's probably to be expected tho.
Since coming home Buddy is no where near himself, he is eating really really well! But obviously still very sick. But what's really concerning me is that not only is he very off balance, but its almost like he cant see. He is snapping at things that aren't there, and not even doing that normally.
Tonight out of curiosity I went to pat him, which I already know he will attack me for, because we haven't gotten to that stage of taming yet, (touch and patting was the next on the list in his training). He did attack like I expected, but completely missed my hand! And that is not Buddy, Buddy has always been literally pin point accurate! So, I am so stressed, I want to cry talking about it all, this is so terrible.

Just for information.
Buddy's sleeping patterns are generally normal daylight/night patterns. He goes to bed at the latest around 7:00 PM. Then his cage is covered with a sheet. because he is in the lounge room with us, TV is generally on till we go to bed. We get up at 4:00 Am for work, its always still dark before we leave, so we lift his cage cover and leave for work, letting him wake up whenever he does.
He always has food in his cage, he has two feeding bowls, one is usually filled with parrot seed, or parrot sprouts, or dried fruits and nuts mixed with seed, the other with parrot pellets, he usually eats out of both. Two days out of the week he has nothing but parrot pellets, every other day after we get home from work he has a mixture of raw fresh veg and fruit for dinner, the combination is always varied, but the fruits and veg he normally eats are: Apple, grapes, Fresh corn and cob, broccoli, (leaves and stalk too) cauliflower, carrot, cucumber.
others he has, but are not so regular are: Banana, nectarine, peach, blackberry, strawberry, cantaloupe, zucchini, lettuce.
Foods he has tried, in very small amounts, but are not a part of his diet are: Shaved ham, square chicken loaf, very small amount of cooked bacon, (max about 3 pieces the size of a sunflower seed in total ever). Bread, boiled egg, potato, a tiny bit of toast or crumpet with either peanut butter, vegemite, maple syrup, that's only when we share breakfast on a weekend tho, and he only gets a very little bit because I'm usually pretty hungry.
All fruits and veg are always washed, but store bought, prob need to go organic.
His water, both bath and drinking, are changed every day, in fact usually a few times a day because he likes dipping his food into the water and messes it all up. And his cage gets a full clean out weekly, except last week, which was a very bad week.

I'm calling the avarian again tomorrow, I think Buddy is blind, and I don't think he is showing enough positive results and needs a full blood test done. I'm so worried I cant sleep.
My wife keeps telling me we cant afford it, and she's right, but I don't give a #### and just want everything to be ok again.

[liz]

Yes, even with money tight if you get a pet you are responsible for it's well being. I know people who take good care of themselves and the pet only gets what time is left over.
My critters care comes before my own. They are like children and totally dependent on us. Even if I have to spend the grocery money I will care for my birds.

[Wolf]

I can't give you a diagnosis even if I wanted to as I don't have the knowledge to do so. I would love to be more helpful to you and Buddy than I am able to be and after reading this, I too am very worried for him, this is bad, very bad.
I do have some comments especially about his diet and although if Buddy were healthy these might not be cause for concern, but as he is currently ill he needs all of the help that he can get. Please no Maple syrup or bacon, I realize that the amount that you give him is very small but liver issues are bad news, so at least until he is better I would not give these to him and am even concerned about the egg for now as he does not need them, he is getting enough protein with the pellets and with the combination of free feeding of both pellets and seeds he is definitely getting to much fat and perhaps too many carbohydrates and these can contribute to both liver disease and to diabetes as well as possible kidney issues as these three organs, liver, kidneys and pancreas work very closely together, so much so that what affects one probably is also affecting the other two as well.

This sight issue also concerns me greatly so I realy must as if you are using any special lighting for him such as full spectrum lights and if so what are the Ktemp, the Cri, and any UV A or B output of the bulb or tube, It would probably be good to know the wattage as well and the placement of the light if you use it. Another possible factor for this could be found in your choice of cookware and any kitchen appliance that you use such as toasters or toaster ovens as these things may all have a non stick coating which can not be used around birds. That goes for non stick cookware as well. Also Clothes irons may have such a coating and need to be avoided.

Have you examined his cage and anything metal that he may bite or chew on or even grab onto with his beak to help him climb for rust or what metal is being used as many metals are toxic to birds. You may also need to check out what you use for cleaning as pine oil cleaners which are the most commonly used cleaners are toxic to birds as are many others and they don't just affect the respiratory system. I suggest that you check out this list which begins on the second page of this link to see if anything that might be toxic to your bird is in your home. viewtopic.php?f=8&t=12521
Don't forget to check your houseplants against this list as well.

I really hate having to ask all of these things, but finding the cause of Buddies problems is just as important as finding out what is wrong. Good luck and please keep me informed about Buddy.

[mmeager]

Liz:
I couldn't agree more, our animals are just as much a part of the family as we are, only they need more care, as they are totally reliant on us, just like our children. There has been times in life where our pets have eaten and we haven't! My wife didn't really mean what she said, she is just worried that's all, it was actually my wife who took Buddy back to the vet's today. Yesterday I was venting! Was just so stressed out! And grumpy with everyone and everything!!!! Including my poor wife!

Wolf:
Thank you once again for your input and concern, its really appreciated! And I fully understand you are in no position for diagnosis, that's the Avarian's job! I guess its just human, to search for even a hint of an idea that could help when a loved one is in trouble. It also helps to just correlate events by writing it all down, and allowing others to hear you.
And yes, this is bad, its very very very bad! At this point it even has the Avarian stumped. She actually said she hasn't come across anything quite like this before.
Buddy went back to the vets today, and is staying their again overnight, he is having a full complete test of bloods, we should have a result tomorrow morning, hopefully this will enlighten us on what may have gone wrong. I guess we cant rule out genetics either, Buddy is obviously hybrid.

The Avarian agrees that Buddy cant see, he is going by feel alone, and this has only developed in the last few days. She is suggesting that either toxins, or virus could be the cause, he is being given an generalized antibiotic tonight, something strong enough to fight but not strong enough to effect his liver.
The Avarian's main concern is his liver and health, his eyesight may be reversible, maybe not, if not we may have a blind bird, this makes me cry for him, but either way Buddy will always have a home and a place in our family.
I could say a hell of a lot more, but I wont yet, because we just don't know.

To answer some of your questions wolf.
We have no artificial lighting for Buddy, just natural light, we have large windows in our lounge room, allowing a lot of natural light into the house, throughout the day this is the only lighting Buddy receives, the curtains are open, so he gets natural sunrise, sunset. only artificial lighting is standard LED ceiling lights.
In the very first week we purchased Buddy we got rid of all our Teflon coated cookware, and replaced them with stoneware. The kitchen is separate from the lounge room where Buddy lives, and the door is normally closed while cooking. I don't think our toaster has non-stick coating, its fairly old, and we don't have a toaster oven. We do have a jaffle maker tho, which is used. I don't think we have used the clothes iron since we got Buddy! Were not really that sort of people, and don't really need an iron that much.
Buddy's cage is brand new, no rust or anything like that, the only metal in his cage are the stainless steel hooks that came with his ladders that we bought from the pet shop. And stainless steel clips that his pet shop bought toys hang from.
For cleaning out his cage I use standard dishwashing liquid, and everything is rinsed really well and dried before putting back in his cage. Perhaps I should purchase some specialized bird safe cleaners?

With his diet, I am going strictly on the Avarian's advice right now, with no variations.
He had that little bit of bacon a while ago, we were having breakfast together on a weekend, so I let him try a little bacon, as I say about 3 small pieces the size of a sunflower seed, that's all he has had, and only the once, its not a part of his diet. Same for the boiled egg, a small amount was chopped up and put in with his veggies, I actually thought that would be really good for him, but it was only the once and that was about a month ago. At that time he was strong and full of life, really active. Do you think those foods should be banned? or just because he is sick? Oh, and same for the crumpet, golden syrup, peanut butter, he didn't really get much of the spread, only just enough for a taste, with a tiny pinch off the corner of my crumpet, and once again, not a part of his actual diet.

And one more thing, it only occurred to me today, Buddy loves my wife's hair! But she does use hairspray in her hair, He has never been in her hair with fresh hairspray, only after a days work, and only a couple of times, because my wife doesn't like him getting all tangled up in her hair! So she tries to stop him. lol.

[liz]

I can feel your compassion for your bird. I was not berating you. I was trying to reinforce your own thoughts.

I have no idea what could be wrong but I have a story for this too:
I had severe hypoglycemia and while I had to work I just increased my protiens and lowered my carb intake. It did not help and I caught a virus that put me in bed for ten days. Momma came to check on me and I was yellow. She rushed me to the doctor who rushed me to the hospital. I had acute pancreatitus and had been eating exactly backwards. I should have increased the carbs and reduced or illuminated the protein. 29 days of IVs and no food I was able to go home but now have liver damage for life.
I had been going to a doctor for a year using up my sick days 2 hours at a time. He put me through a lot of expensive tests but everything came out good. The only thing that saved me was the hand of GOD and that my doctor was not in but his partner was who with fresh eyes saw what was wrong immediately.

Your avian vet does not know everything. If you can take him to a different one. Wolf and Pajarita do extensive research on anything that comes up not already in their knowledge. I am sure there are others in the forum who are also doing research for your baby. Increase his fruit and veggies. They love cooked steel cut oatmeal cooked with out anything added. It cannot hurt and may help while trying to find the cause and cure for his illness. If he is not wanting to eat you may have to syring feed the pureed fruit. It will not be a cure but fruit and veg may control toxins while the new vet comes up with an idea.

[Wolf]

Technically, and by strict adherence to dietary information currently available on parrots, I am supposed to say that you should never give the foods that I mentioned. But the truth of the matter is that not one of us always eats correctly and I do not feel that parrots are any different than we are in this respect and like most other people my parrots get an occasional tidbit that they should not have. We have learned that being too clean and germicidal can impair our immune systems just as much as over exposure to pathagens can, so I feel that the forbidden treat now and then not only provides a satisfying taste treat for our birds but may actually be beneficial to them physically, although there is currently no scientific evidence to support this as far as I am aware of. Besides, just think how boring and less enriched our lives would be if we only ate what we were supposed to. No, I am not suggesting a total ban on these foods except for right now while he is so sick as even small amounts could stress his organs just enough to push this over the top.

There is a vary real possibility that this is genetic due to the current breeding practices that are in use. I am accustomed to breeding thoroughbreds ( race horses ) and have a fair grasp of the fundamentals of the genetics require for this, but an still at a loss when it comes to birds as the terminology is different as well as the goals and the fact that I have not yet taken the time to study this area of parrot husbandry in any detail. But since all genetics at least follow the same basic rules, I don't think that his being a hybrid is the cause of the troubles because most hybrids seem to be stronger than the non hybrid, although this is not always true. The most likely culprit if this is genetic is line breeding or inbreeding as most people know it as. Inbreeding can and usually does lead to many health issues and weaknesses both internally and externally.

In the area of household cleaners, I was not specifically referring to just those used to clean his cage or his things. My lady uses a pine cleaner for the floors and even though I complain about it everytime because of the strength of the fumes, and their effect on both myself and the birds, she somehow just can't seem to hear me. Most household cleaners leave some sort of residue, especially the ones that are antibacterial or antifungal and the bird would then be exposed to them simply by walking through the area they have been used, maybe not a real problem but some toxins will not leave the body quickly enough to prevent a gradual buildup in the organs.

Yes, I am fishing for possible causes and solutions, because like you I am very worried about Buddy. I don't know if this is the cause of his blindness but cholesterol is a cause of blindness in parrots and too strong of a light or the wrong lighting while he was with the breeder could have started this blindness process.

[mmeager]

I have a lot to say to both liz and wolf, but right now I am going to be very brief. I appreciate both your support and concern. And want to keep you in the loop so to speak.

I Don't think there is much point in looking for further solutions or causes right now, what is, is. And we cant help that.
I don't believe that Buddy is in this situation due to anything we have or haven't done, I think its something that happened, and would have happened irrespective.

Buddy is home with us tonight, to be as comfortable and surrounded by as much love as possible. His blood test results showed nothing that may be the cause or cure. Except for the fact that he is anemic, and his liver is failing. The Avarian clinic is one of the few major clinics this side of the city, and run by several Avarian vets. The next step for answers is a liver biopsy, both the vet and us don't believe he would survive a procedure like that at this point in time.

Right now I don't think that Buddy is even going to survive the night, if he does it will be by some sort of miracle. I am atheist, but find myself praying to a god that doesn't exist, just maybe?

[liz]

So how is Buddy this morning?
I did not say his problem was caused by you. I was just saying things that could be done while you are waiting for a vet to figure out his problem.
I was raised in the north so I have a tendancy to "fling" information instead of like Wolf who has a calming affect when he posts.

[Wolf]

There is a very good possibility that this is due to genetics, especially as there is not anything showing up on the tests that should have detected something. Although my questions were asked to see if there were any contributing factors in your home mostly because if this is genetically induced then Buddy would have been exceptionally sensitive to the effects of any and everything that could affect him. I have never seen or read anything at all to even remotely suggest that this is due to anything that you have done or not done, but like you I was looking for anything that might have had an effect on him even if it was small and might not have had any effect if he had been healthy.
I am so sorry if my questioning or if the way that I wrote thing suggested that anything that you had done caused this. Buddy has not been with you long enough for this to have been caused by you, still it could have been aggravated if there were anything that was used in your home that could have any effect and the window into his life and circumstance is small so I had to ask. Still the answers all indicated that there was nothing that you did or did not due that could have contributed to this even as an irritant. You have done your homework exceedingly well. Many of us try to do this well for our birds, but many of us will still miss something and I can't see that you have missed anything at all. I am so sorry that this has occurred to buddy and you. My mind is running wild through everything that I have learned about parrots and Buddy's condition trying to find some sense in this. something, anything that could have told us that this was happening to him sooner, some way to have been able to change the outlook and eventual outcome of this terrible situation. I am losing sleep and wake up with a thought and can't get it out of my mind and start searching in my medical books to see if there is anything that I have missed or didn't give proper consideration to.

I am at a total loss at finding anything at all that could have even contributed in any way and the only thing that I can see is that this could only be due to a genetic defect from improper breeding practices. nothing else fits any of the evidence that has been presented and my heart is breaking for you and Buddy and like you there is nothing that I can do about it except to endure as best as I can and I know that this is much worse for you, and again there is not a single thing that I can say , suggest or do to try and make this better in any way. I am so sorry.

[mmeager]

Buddy is still with us guys, but not really showing any improvement.
I truly don't feel anybody has suggested we did anything wrong, you guys have been amazing support for me and Buddy. And this I appreciate with all my heart!

Its more just me, I have been wracking my brains out going thru every movement and motion we have made since Buddy has been with us, and just come up empty handed. I think the vet would have come up with something if it were something like that. But its not, this seems to be something completely different.

One thing that has been playing around in our heads, is the pet shop we bought him from sold him to us at a cheaper price than he was advertised for, this is not why we bought him, we didn't even know they were going to reduce the price until payment time, but the girl behind the counter said. "We are going to sell him to you at a cheaper price " "Because he is a bit of a naughty bird".
Well, Buddy is not a naughty bird, he is just full of character!
We cant help but wonder, Did the pet shop already know about some sort of pre disposition? And put it to us as a naughty bird, but not telling us the truth????