Natural Diet for Parrots danger of cooked grains

[seagoatdeb]

As far as I know, in middle eastern cuisine, bulgur is usually not cooked in any way, it's just cracked wheat but it doesn't matter.

As to the raw diet helping pluckers, I am sorry but your reading many posts cannot be used as proof. It's not that I don't believe you. I do. I have cured pluckers myself and can attest to the fact that a fresh food diet is part of the 'cure' but, unless there is no other change in the bird's life (namely, better light, better light schedule, more attention, etc) one cannot say with any type of certainty that it was, indeed, the raw food diet and not the general better husbandry that did it.

Personally, I would think that if a raw diet really was the only thing needed for curing pluckers, we would have all heard about it a million times.

Pajarita , I never said it was the only thing needed, and of course there are other factors. i only wanted to help those with plucking issues that were still there after trying other methods. Added to that, differennt species of parrots ate different things, so there is no one method perfect for every parrot. Even if i had not the experience of seeing change in other people posts after they went to raw diet, It make logical sense that the more natural you feed a parrot, the better for them, and they never had cooked food, it is unnatural, so it is worth a try for anyone who has tried everything else thats for sure.

[seagoatdeb]

I have had three birds come to me that plucked, the first was Kookooloo, CAG, who also self mutilated, the second was Keeta, Parrotlet, and the third is Marley a budgie. All of them have made tremendous improvement except for Marley who will never have adequate feathering as there is too much damage to the follicles so they don't grow back. Keeta has not plucked since coming here. Kookooloo has been the hardest and her plucking is mostly tied into the attention that she receives. The difference with her plucking is that while I have been able to reduce it to the point that most people would not know that she was still plucking unless they saw the underside of her wings, I have not been able to get her to stop it completely. That means that I still need to do something that I am not.

I am just trying to see if there is anything that I might have missed that I can do to help her to stop this plucking. More raw foods my be just what is required as it has been a long journey to get her to eat any raw foods at all. I work with her on this all the time but will try harder. I have her on a solar light schedule I have improved her diet in every way although she still does not eat enough raw foods. I spend as much time with her as I can and can see that she is a much happier bird and the relationship between us keeps growing and improving and it was great to begin with, but it is still improving.

I am doing all that I know to do and am still looking for answers, maybe I am doing all that can be done and this will improve at the rate I can get her to accept more raw foods, I don't know, but until I can fix this I will keep looking and keep trying, she deserves that from me.

I often wish that parrots could just tell you, but you will find just what she needs if you keep looking, you have done so great by her so far. With Gaugan, she had a yeast infection when i got her and was underweight, and I really think that affected what she wanted to eat, plus she is stubborn. it had been a real battle over the years to get her to eat a good variety of raw foods. There were so many mornings i have had raw veggies for breakfast to help her to eat....lol

[Pajarita]

Seagoatdeb, this was your statement: " I have seen many posts from people over the years in facebook groups that took parrrots off grains for plucking problems and their feathers grew back in". You might not have meant that eliminating grains or a completely raw diet was THE 'cure' but that was the way it was worded. I am not trying to argue with you for argument sake but this is the type of statement that needs to be either clarified or supported by evidence (either scientific or an overwhelming number of anecdotal ones) because people with plucking birds are, usually, pretty desperate and would try anything and, in my personal opinion and experience as well as based on what I have read everywhere else, taking them off grains or offering a completely raw diet might not help at all with plucking but, on the other hand, can be a dangerous thing to do if you don't know EXACTLY what you are doing in terms of nutrition.

[seagoatdeb]

Seagoatdeb, this was your statement: " I have seen many posts from people over the years in facebook groups that took parrrots off grains for plucking problems and their feathers grew back in". You might not have meant that eliminating grains or a completely raw diet was THE 'cure' but that was the way it was worded. I am not trying to argue with you for argument sake but this is the type of statement that needs to be either clarified or supported by evidence (either scientific or an overwhelming number of anecdotal ones) because people with plucking birds are, usually, pretty desperate and would try anything and, in my personal opinion and experience as well as based on what I have read everywhere else, taking them off grains or offering a completely raw diet might not help at all with plucking but, on the other hand, can be a dangerous thing to do if you don't know EXACTLY what you are doing in terms of nutrition.

Yes i have seen over the years people that took the parrots off grain, or only used sprouted grains, and feed a raw diet and their parrot has improved. I have included raw diet info,in this forum. but grains are unnecessay for humans and for parrots. As long as the diet has lots of raw veggies, fruits, raw seeds or sprouted raw seeds, and nuts or sprouted raw nuts and some legumes then they are getting enough nutrition and you can use a vitamin supplement also. Of course you should do other healthy things like give them the proper amount of light and dark. Each person should do research on the natural diet of their parrot and adjust accordingly. I think feeding a lot of grains is dangerous in the long run. I have my opinion and you have yours and that is fine. Its not something you can debate or arguue really, with the kind of criteria you mentioned, because parrots did not eat cooked grains in the wild, and there all no studies to prove it is safe to feed this in the long run, so lets agree to disagree, since we would just go over the same points.

[~Karen]

I think feeding a lot of grains is dangerous in the long run.

Dangerous as in dead bird? Illness? Disease? Would you please elaborate on lots and dangerous?

[seagoatdeb]

I think feeding a lot of grains is dangerous in the long run.

Dangerous as in dead bird? Illness? Disease? Would you please elaborate on lots and dangerous?

Dangerous as in feeding something that is not a natural part of diet, and cooked grains are not part of natural diet..... to me that is a dangerous practice to feed in high amounts and i am talking about what we may find in the long term...nothing immmediate. To me lots is when it is a major part of an everyday diet...like 20 percent or higher every day, to just throw out an amount. I do feed some small amount of grains but they are small amounts and not everyday.

When you are feeding something that is not natural and no parrot in the wild ever had cooked grains,.... and there are no studies on it...it concerns me. Since many do feed a lot of cooked grains, it does not do any harm in the short term, that much is pretty obvious. i am worried about the long term since it is not natural, cooking kills the enzymes and some of the nutrition and you cant feed grains raw. Moderation and low amounts are fine with me. I am concerned about the amount of high grain diets being used and what we will see when there are long term studies that show the effects. Human beings are becoming more sensitive to cooked grains, some more than others and that is enough to give me pause just there, and we have been eating cooked grains for thousands of years. Parrots ate no cooked grain.

[Wolf]

I am not sure that dangerous is the right word for this as there is currently no evidence to support this in parrots. At this point in time there is also no evidence that I am aware of that suggests that parrots do not eat grains in the wild.

With that being said, please stat with me just a little longer as I am not saying that there is no reason to not be concerned about this. Due to the parrots natural eating habits grains as we feed them to our parrots would not be a part of their natural diet, in the same manner that seeds as we feed them are not a natural part of their diet either. In both cases the grains and seeds that the eat naturally would be either sprouted or they would be young, immature, green seeds or grains that are full of moisture.

It is also a very common practice since there is a lack of research on parrot diets and the long term effects of most of the foods that we feed them that we very often draw from the research that has been done with other animals. These other animals appear to be mostly mammals such as dogs, cats and humans for the most part. We do have some strong indicators in regards to grains being a less than ideal food for us and for our dogs and cats and that these same grains while having some benefits also can create some internal problems when they are fed to an excess.

Although I do use a fair amount of cooked whole grains in my birds diets at this time, I can not say with any real certainty that this is the best thing to do. As a result of this I suggest that those of us with birds to continue to do research into our birds diets, listening carefully to both the pros and cons without discounting either and use what we learn to help us to decide what is best for our birds.

[Pajarita]

Well, dogs and cats are carnivores so grains are VERY iffy, at best (I personally feed exclusively 'grain free' diets to my dogs and cats) and we do have millions of studies done on birds but they are all for chickens which are omnivores and not meant to actually last so, although we can and do use this data, is not what one would call specific to parrots and should be taken with more than one grain of salt, so to speak.

The thing is that, for one thing, I don't think that anybody would agree that feeding grains exclusively to parrots is a good thing -well, you do have the people who feed mostly pellets and/or seeds with a little piece of fruit/veggie here and there but we all know nowadays this is not the way to feed birds and the people who do it don't do it out of conviction that it's the best diet but because it's the easiest and cheapest and they simply can not be bothered to do it right.

For another, even leaving aside the fact that parrots do eat grains in the wild, pet parrots have been eating processed grains since the early 70's without any apparent severe harm to their health. Now, I am not saying that there is NO harm (I don't really know if there is any and I doubt there is anybody who can because there is no scientific study or even large anecdotal evidence of one way or the other except that their life expectancy is now much longer which would seem as proof but it's not because there are other things that directly influence this), what I am saying is that, if it was that dangerous, somebody would have already noticed something after 40 years.

Now, I know that you have done a lot of research on this subject because there are individuals in your family, Seagoatdeb, that have trouble with grains so I can understand why you feel the way you feel about them - and it's not that I actually disagree that an all or mostly grain diet would be unhealthy for parrots but nobody here recommends that - far from it! And, I don't know about anybody else who has questioned your statements, but, personally, I think that the problem is that you tend to make statements that are your opinion without specifically qualifying them as such. Nobody would argue with your opinion on something because it's a personal thing but when you state something as a fact and you cannot substantiate it... well, that's when the questions and requests for clarification start, no?

[seagoatdeb]

Well, dogs and cats are carnivores so grains are VERY iffy, at best (I personally feed exclusively 'grain free' diets to my dogs and cats) and we do have millions of studies done on birds but they are all for chickens which are omnivores and not meant to actually last so, although we can and do use this data, is not what one would call specific to parrots and should be taken with more than one grain of salt, so to speak.

The thing is that, for one thing, I don't think that anybody would agree that feeding grains exclusively to parrots is a good thing -well, you do have the people who feed mostly pellets and/or seeds with a little piece of fruit/veggie here and there but we all know nowadays this is not the way to feed birds and the people who do it don't do it out of conviction that it's the best diet but because it's the easiest and cheapest and they simply can not be bothered to do it right.

For another, even leaving aside the fact that parrots do eat grains in the wild, pet parrots have been eating processed grains since the early 70's without any apparent severe harm to their health. Now, I am not saying that there is NO harm (I don't really know if there is any and I doubt there is anybody who can because there is no scientific study or even large anecdotal evidence of one way or the other except that their life expectancy is now much longer which would seem as proof but it's not because there are other things that directly influence this), what I am saying is that, if it was that dangerous, somebody would have already noticed something after 40 years.

Now, I know that you have done a lot of research on this subject because there are individuals in your family, Seagoatdeb, that have trouble with grains so I can understand why you feel the way you feel about them - and it's not that I actually disagree that an all or mostly grain diet would be unhealthy for parrots but nobody here recommends that - far from it! And, I don't know about anybody else who has questioned your statements, but, personally, I think that the problem is that you tend to make statements that are your opinion without specifically qualifying them as such. Nobody would argue with your opinion on something because it's a personal thing but when you state something as a fact and you cannot substantiate it... well, that's when the questions and requests for clarification start, no?

That cooked grains are not natural for parrots is not my opinion it is fact. That feeding an animal a food that is not natural in the wild in a large percentage of their diet without any proof or studies that it is okay in the long run, is a dangerous practice, to me, is common sense and it is obvious it is my opinion by the way i stated it. The part that you are looking at as my opinion that needed clarification, is probably my phrasing, and I shouldnt have used the word danger, without better clarification, since some have taken it different from how i meant it, and we need to find ways to explain our postition that are easily understood. Howevever i did use, "I think" and that indicates it is my opinion. I think the reason I was questioned was to clarify why i had come to that opinion, so your interpretation, of that may be wrong.

We all have given an opinion without substanciating it at times, and Pajarita, you have done it many times also. It is important we all look at this. We all can agree to better clarification and opinions specified better. Right?

I have seen posts on this forum that show cooked grains fed in gloop mixtures every day, and amounts of over 20%. 20% to me is substancial, that is 1/5 of their daily diet! This post from the topic looking for a good gloop recipe recommended 40% grain, " When it is mixed this way it gives me roughly a ratio of 40% whole grains, 40% vegetables and 20% white beans and lentils." That is 4/10 of their diet, starting to get close to half of diet. The there is this post from gloop recipe for dummies needed ASAP. "The final product should be 50% grains and beans and 50% veggies " Now 50% cooked grains and cooked beans are mentioned here. This is what gets me very concerned because it cant be substanciated by studies and this is a substancial amount of cooked grains and cooked beans and neither are natural in the diet of a parrot in the wild!

Parrots were feed seed diets for many many years with no one seeing the detrements to health, It will likely take just as long to see any detrement there may be to feeding substancial amounts of cooked grains. I have not seen any mention of diets from the 70s where parrots where fed grain every day, so do you have any links you saved about this? I did see some people recommend giving grains back in the 70's, but not any everyday feeding, and not in large percentages, so I am interested in any info about that.

I had made this post to open discussion and hopefully get more people researching and thinking about cutting down grains and increasing fresh raw food, especially if they have moved as far as they can with the health of their parrot and still have a plucking, or behavioral problem and want to try something that may help.

[seagoatdeb]

I tend to feed mostly raw whole food myself, but for a diet that uses some cooked foods, I will give the amounts here that Alicia Mc Walters P.H.D., C.N.C. recommends for feeding African Greys.

Avian Holistic Health Consultant Alicia McWatters recommends the following general guideline for an African Grey that is on some pellets: vegetables 30%; legumes 20%; pellets 20%; seeds/nuts 15%; fruits 10%; and grains 5%.
The amount of grains is very low, even if you add in the percentage of grains that may be in the pellets.

Her recomendation for a pellet free sample diet for an African Grey is this one:

MASH INGREDIENTS (ONE MEDIUM PARROT/TEN DAYS)
Frozen Organic Vegetables: (corn, green beans, carrots, peas) 1/3 lb
Fresh Organic Vegetables: ½ oz parsley, 1/8 large tomato, ½ chayote (fed raw), 3/4 oz sweet potatoes/yams, 3/4 oz medium white potatoes (fed lightly steamed, skins included).
Bean Mix: (½ teaspoon each of the following beans and peas) black-eyed peas, pinto beans, kidney beans, adzuki beans, green and yellow split peas, garbanzo beans, black beans, soy beans, mung beans. (Rinse and drain them well, soak in cold water 6 to 8 hours i8n the refrigerator. After soaking, boil them for 10 minutes, simmer for 20 minutes, using only enough water so that none is left after cooking, to preserve valuable vitamins.)
Grains: (½ teaspoon each, added to beans, soak and boil) wheatberry, pearl barley, triticale, brown rice.
Organic Greens: 1/3 large leaf of (fresh grown) comfrey and/or mustard greens. Comfrey is an herb providing vitamin A, B-complex, C & E; and it is one of the few plants known to contain vitamin B-12, normally found only in animal protein foods. Up to 33% protein is contained in the leaves and it is high in minerals. Mustard greens are high in vitamins A, B, C, calcium and iron. Frilly-leafed and broad-leafed are available.
Organic Fruit: 1/8 large banana, 1/8 large apple, ½ oz whole grape, 1/4 teaspoon strawberries or cranberries seasonally).
Seeds: (1/4 tsp each) pumpkin seeds and sesame seeds, both provide calcium along with zinc, which aids in fertility. Sesame seeds also provide an additional source of the 8 "essential" amino acids which cannot be manufactured by a parrot’s body.
Nutritional Supplements: 1/4 tsp powdered kelp (contains iodine, therefore, helps to prevent thyroid disorders, such as goiter); 1/4 tsp Blue Green Algae or alfalfa powder (aids in digestion, strengthens immune system, contains essential fatty acids, and is high density nutrition); sprinkle of Kyolic (garlic); Apple Cider Vinegar and Calcium Magnesium Liquid (all three supplements can be purchased at a natural foods store)..............

As you can see the grains are again low being measured in teaspoons, and beans being measured in teaspoons, but vegetables being measured in pound and ounces. I used Alicias diet here, as she is a good representaion of an Avian Expert who promotes no pellets or low pellets. The more research I do, I cant find any avian vet or avian nutritionist that uses such high levels of cooked grains in the diet as I have seen posted here.

You may disagree with the kind of beans or some other things in this sample diet, but what i am questioning is the high use of cooked grains in the gloops here compared to the much lower grains I find everywhere else, and i would like to know why this amount of cooked grains is being promoted here, for example what is the criteria or evidence being used to establish that this gloop is the best way to to feed your parrot. I think this a fair question and would appreciate a thoughfull answer.

I leave raw veggies out all day for parrots munching on, but remove all fruits, cooked food, frozen food etc. after a couple hours as my research shows this is the safe way to do it. The second question i have is why are there recommendations in this forum of leaving cooked grains in gloop mixtures out all day? In food safe courses they teach that cooked grains can only be left out for two hours. Many fruits also two hours. How are you establishing that gloop being left out all day is a safe practice for parrots? Again i would appreciate a thoughfull answer.