Natural Diet for Parrots danger of cooked grains

[Wolf]

Well I am the one that posted the ratio of 40% partly cooked whole grains, 40 % mixed vegetable and 20% thoroughly cooked white beans and lentils. But you err, I think when you say that this represents 4/10ths or 2/5ths of their daily diet as it is being taken out of context. I also feed a seed and nut mixture for dinner as well as fresh raw fruits and vegetables all day as well as for treats. So at best the amount of whole grains in my birds daily diet is around 20%. The 40% is only the ratio used in my version of gloop as a basic recipe and I often and even more produce so as to increase the variety of this in both my gloop and in their daily diet.

I do not mind that you use my ratio in your post but it would be more accurate if it was not taken out of the context that it was offered, especially since I have also repeatedly stated that I first feed them fresh raw produce before the gloop and that both the produce and gloop are available all day and that they are also fed a seed/ nut mix in the evenings for dinner. Just because I may make a fruit salad containing 40% apple, 40% pear and 20% grapes that does not mean that apples or pears represent 40% of my daily diet unless that is all that I eat that day.

[Pajarita]

I am the one that says that the gloop should be 50% grains/beans (I should add seeds here, too as the gloop does contain flax and sesame seeds) and 50% veggies but, like Wolf, I also feed raw produce and seeds/nuts on a daily basis (and right now, they are also getting mealworms AND sprouts four times a week) so it's not as if the birds diet was 50% grains. Furthermore, this 50% "grains" does not only include the small white beans, the black lentils and the seeds but also the black, red and wild rice which have no gluten AND, I am now using ancient grains which are naturally lower so, as you can see, the actual percentage of 'gluten' in their diet is much lower.

Now, the 'cooked grains are not natural to parrots' is a fact but then you give a recipe that has 20% beans which are even more unnatural to a parrot's diet than cooked grains because parrots, at least, do eat grains in the wild but never, ever eat pulses. Let's face it, we can't give them their 'natural' food so we all have to make do with what is not only available but also practical. Very few people can prepare a nutritionally balanced, completely raw diet for their birds. And, in reality, if we were to get really 'technical' about these things, your germinated and soaked seeds and nuts are not natural to their diet, either. Parrots don't eat germinated or soaked seed in the wild, they eat the seed or the nut right off the plant. Mind you, I am not saying your diet is unhealthy (I am sure it is), only that is also not natural. And when we talk about substantiating and who does it and who doesn't, I think you are been a bit unfair. It's very seldom that I don't post or later provide a link when requested (usually by you ). You, on the other hand, hardly ever do. Whenever I have asked you, you reply that you have given us enough info for us to do the search on our own or mention multiple postings which, to be honest, nobody else seems to have seen (not that this means you haven't, only that they cannot be used as proof) and, in two occasions, posted links that were advertisements of products -which are useless as proof of anything.

As to the 70's reference on people beginning to feed grains to their parrots, that's when pellets came out which are all made with grains as well as when people started feeding them human food like pasta, pizza, bread, etc. even monkey biscuits! Before that and as far as I know, they were fed seeds and nothing else.

And, to tell you the truth, I would not feed the recipe Dr. Mc Watters is giving, either, and I'll tell you why:
- She uses pinto, black-eyed, etc beans which are the highest on the toxic lectin (instead of recommending white beans which are the lowest) and says to boil them for only 10 minutes when all literature says that they need to be boiled for 30 (simmering is not good enough, apparently).
- She uses brown rice (which we all know is way too high in arsenic and not as nutritious as red or black rice) and triticale, a man-made second generation hybrid that is practically only used as animal fodder (I only use and recommend human grade).
- She mentions a grand total of three greens: parsley (which I don't feed at all as it is, by far, the highest of all plant material in oxalic acid), and comfrey or mustard greens (mustard greens been another doozy in oxalic acid). She states that comfrey provides B12 which, for one thing, it's not necessary to supplement to birds because they produce it themselves and, for another, even if it was, comfrey was not going to do the trick as the amount of comfrey that would need to be consumed is huge and unhealthy (4 lbs daily for humans! - it destroys the liver).
- Veggies are good but I am surprised she uses white potatoes (she does say to put them there with the skin but I have never, ever, ever seen any of my birds eating it. All they eat is the white 'meat' which is not much more than carbs) Also, why chayote? I am puzzled by this choice and she doesn't explain it.
- And I would never feed algae or kelp to my birds (way too high in iodine and talk about unnatural!)

Also, can you provide a couple of reputable links indicating that cooked grains should be removed after two hours? Because, although I have seen references to the 'refrigerate after two hours' is always used for food in general (which includes meats, fish, etc), I have never found anything that supports this specifically for cooked grains. Going by my research (but I could be wrong so if you have a good link to correct me, please provide), the ONLY real danger is B cereus but, even if it happens, we are talking about diarrhea (unlikely as the high heat of cooking kills the spores) or vomiting for 24 hours and that's it, more inconvenient than anything anywhere near fatal and, for what I can tell, my birds have never gotten it (I have never, ever had a single parrot vomiting). The other thing is that it appears on almost every food we eat (it's in the soil) but it requires a series of conditions for it to reproduce so much that it actually becomes dangerous -like a dry medium is worse than wet and oily been worst; it requiring low heat cooking for the diarrheal strain spores to survive and quite a bit more than just 2 hours at temperatures higher than 86 degrees for the bacillus colony to grow large enough to actually cause any harm at all, etc. It's known as a common cause of 'food poisoning' from fried rice (oily medium at temperatures of more than 86 F -which they call 'abusive temperatures' - for many hours). As a matter of fact, it appears that a bit of it is actually beneficial as it 'fights' salmonella in the gut!

See these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacillus_cereus
http://www.foodsafety.govt.nz/elibrary/ ... orming.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2863360/
http://www.ecolab.com/innovation/microb ... s/b-cereus

The best proof I can offer is that I've been leaving the gloop out all day for 20 years without any of my parrots ever throwing up from it.

[seagoatdeb]

Well I am the one that posted the ratio of 40% partly cooked whole grains, 40 % mixed vegetable and 20% thoroughly cooked white beans and lentils. But you err, I think when you say that this represents 4/10ths or 2/5ths of their daily diet as it is being taken out of context. I also feed a seed and nut mixture for dinner as well as fresh raw fruits and vegetables all day as well as for treats. So at best the amount of whole grains in my birds daily diet is around 20%. The 40% is only the ratio used in my version of gloop as a basic recipe and I often and even more produce so as to increase the variety of this in both my gloop and in their daily diet.

I do not mind that you use my ratio in your post but it would be more accurate if it was not taken out of the context that it was offered, especially since I have also repeatedly stated that I first feed them fresh raw produce before the gloop and that both the produce and gloop are available all day and that they are also fed a seed/ nut mix in the evenings for dinner. Just because I may make a fruit salad containing 40% apple, 40% pear and 20% grapes that does not mean that apples or pears represent 40% of my daily diet unless that is all that I eat that day.

I did post that 20% which is 1/5 of the diet seems excessive to me just above it. I figured that is what yours would work out to when i looked for posts on the forum that would be 20% or higher promoted in a diet every day. Sorry it was not clearer. My question is how did you come up with feeding that amount of cooked grains and why are you so sure that is the best way to feed and promote to others?

[seagoatdeb]

I am the one that says that the gloop should be 50% grains/beans (I should add seeds here, too as the gloop does contain flax and sesame seeds) and 50% veggies but, like Wolf, I also feed raw produce and seeds/nuts on a daily basis (and right now, they are also getting mealworms AND sprouts four times a week) so it's not as if the birds diet was 50% grains. Furthermore, this 50% "grains" does not only include the small white beans, the black lentils and the seeds but also the black, red and wild rice which have no gluten AND, I am now using ancient grains which are naturally lower so, as you can see, the actual percentage of 'gluten' in their diet is much lower.

Now, the 'cooked grains are not natural to parrots' is a fact but then you give a recipe that has 20% beans which are even more unnatural to a parrot's diet than cooked grains because parrots, at least, do eat grains in the wild but never, ever eat pulses. Let's face it, we can't give them their 'natural' food so we all have to make do with what is not only available but also practical. Very few people can prepare a nutritionally balanced, completely raw diet for their birds. And, in reality, if we were to get really 'technical' about these things, your germinated and soaked seeds and nuts are not natural to their diet, either. Parrots don't eat germinated or soaked seed in the wild, they eat the seed or the nut right off the plant. Mind you, I am not saying your diet is unhealthy (I am sure it is), only that is also not natural. And when we talk about substantiating and who does it and who doesn't, I think you are been a bit unfair. It's very seldom that I don't post or later provide a link when requested (usually by you ). You, on the other hand, hardly ever do. Whenever I have asked you, you reply that you have given us enough info for us to do the search on our own or mention multiple postings which, to be honest, nobody else seems to have seen (not that this means you haven't, only that they cannot be used as proof) and, in two occasions, posted links that were advertisements of products -which are useless as proof of anything.

As to the 70's reference on people beginning to feed grains to their parrots, that's when pellets came out which are all made with grains as well as when people started feeding them human food like pasta, pizza, bread, etc. even monkey biscuits! Before that and as far as I know, they were fed seeds and nothing else.

And, to tell you the truth, I would not feed the recipe Dr. Mc Watters is giving, either, and I'll tell you why:
- She uses pinto, black-eyed, etc beans which are the highest on the toxic lectin (instead of recommending white beans which are the lowest) and says to boil them for only 10 minutes when all literature says that they need to be boiled for 30 (simmering is not good enough, apparently).
- She uses brown rice (which we all know is way too high in arsenic and not as nutritious as red or black rice) and triticale, a man-made second generation hybrid that is practically only used as animal fodder (I only use and recommend human grade).
- She mentions a grand total of three greens: parsley (which I don't feed at all as it is, by far, the highest of all plant material in oxalic acid), and comfrey or mustard greens (mustard greens been another doozy in oxalic acid). She states that comfrey provides B12 which, for one thing, it's not necessary to supplement to birds because they produce it themselves and, for another, even if it was, comfrey was not going to do the trick as the amount of comfrey that would need to be consumed is huge and unhealthy (4 lbs daily for humans! - it destroys the liver).
- Veggies are good but I am surprised she uses white potatoes (she does say to put them there with the skin but I have never, ever, ever seen any of my birds eating it. All they eat is the white 'meat' which is not much more than carbs) Also, why chayote? I am puzzled by this choice and she doesn't explain it.
- And I would never feed algae or kelp to my birds (way too high in iodine and talk about unnatural!)

Also, can you provide a couple of reputable links indicating that cooked grains should be removed after two hours? Because, although I have seen references to the 'refrigerate after two hours' is always used for food in general (which includes meats, fish, etc), I have never found anything that supports this specifically for cooked grains. Going by my research (but I could be wrong so if you have a good link to correct me, please provide), the ONLY real danger is B cereus but, even if it happens, we are talking about diarrhea (unlikely as the high heat of cooking kills the spores) or vomiting for 24 hours and that's it, more inconvenient than anything anywhere near fatal and, for what I can tell, my birds have never gotten it (I have never, ever had a single parrot vomiting). The other thing is that it appears on almost every food we eat (it's in the soil) but it requires a series of conditions for it to reproduce so much that it actually becomes dangerous -like a dry medium is worse than wet and oily been worst; it requiring low heat cooking for the diarrheal strain spores to survive and quite a bit more than just 2 hours at temperatures higher than 86 degrees for the bacillus colony to grow large enough to actually cause any harm at all, etc. It's known as a common cause of 'food poisoning' from fried rice (oily medium at temperatures of more than 86 F -which they call 'abusive temperatures' - for many hours). As a matter of fact, it appears that a bit of it is actually beneficial as it 'fights' salmonella in the gut!

See these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacillus_cereus
http://www.foodsafety.govt.nz/elibrary/ ... orming.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2863360/
http://www.ecolab.com/innovation/microb ... s/b-cereus

The best proof I can offer is that I've been leaving the gloop out all day for 20 years without any of my parrots ever throwing up from it.

I didnt expect you to feed her diet, and i did say i only used her diet as an example, for the way she does not use high grains. I felt i had to come up with one link on the grain amount, since you asked and what i was looking for was an expert that either advocated high grain ussage and couldnt find one.... but found plenty that did not recommend high grains so gave a link to one of those that feed low grain. I feed mostly raw whole food so I dont use her diet either. I was only looking for the amount of grain fed in my research last night. What was important to me is the amount of grains recommended by vets and avian experts and not her whole diet, since we are discussing grains.

My question remains the same since you did not answer it. Why do you feed your amount of cooked grains and feel it is the correct way since you promote it to others? I would like a thoughtfull explnation of why this is the right way to feed, along with any vets or avian nuritionists or scientists that support that. Your experience through the years with the diet counts of course also.

For the second point, Food safe is the training that people that serve food must take to prevent food poisoning in restaurants. The Food safe you have in America is more generous than some and lets food, including grains sit out for 4 hours before its considered unsafe. While its true that most of the time the worst bacteria doesnt multiply to where it will cause poisoning, which includes lack of energy, sleepiness, vomiting, diarreah and dehydration in humans, it does happen from time to time. All over the world there are established amounts of time food can be left out that are considered safe.

Your parrot cant tell you when they are not feeling tip top, and it cant be good for them to be bombarded daily with bacteria grown in mixtures that sit around all day, so this is what gives me the concern when you are not folllowing food safe standards and promoting it to others. it seems like Russian Roullete. I dont need to come up with links on something the whole nutrition community has researched through science for standards, and even made laws about. They are available for anyone who wants to search it out. Your links talk about food posoning, but none of them are saying it is safe to leave cooked grains and other cooked foods out all day.

The problem with links, is there can be some good ones, but they are often just parroting what the original person said and may not even be interpreting it correctly. Also most experts post their information in books and food safe info is in courses that must be taken to be able to work in an establishment dealing with food. You have always put a lot of your faith in links and not as much in a persons experience through time. You have provided a lot of links, when i have asked a question, but they have often not said where the info came from or named the researcher or original writer so i could do further research on the the information.

Your links here just said "see these" and didnt even tell me what part of the articles were your support or why they were relevant.

I try to always give the name of where my info came from. I will do my best to question and point in the direction where info can be found, but i will not post links very often, that do not have the name of a researcher or expert quoted acurately, even if asked to, if i dont think that the asking for the link is a relevant way to get an answer or even necessary. I dont alway want to have a debate. Sometimes i just want discussion and information. In this case, you have been promoting a diet, that I cant find an avian nutritionist, scientest or vet has advocated So i am asking you, why you feed the amount of grains and feel it is the best way to feed and so promote it to others, none of your links really aswered my question. You are advocating to leave gloop out all day, and promoting it, even though food safe says that is not safe, so you need to provide the proof it is safe. This is not about winning a debate, this is about making sure we are carefull about how we treat food to keep it safe for our parrots.

My 2nd question is why have you decided it is safe to leave food out all day and promote it to others? If your best answer is that so far there have been no parrots throwing up from it, that does not convice me it is safe practice. But if that is your best proof, then we will have to agree to disagree, because i will trust all the experts and the laws made for safe food.

[Wolf]

I do promote my gloop recipe as the best that I know of at this time, but I will assure you that when I am comfortable with having found a better diet that I will promote the new one just as much. That is because I do want to feed my birds the best that I can.

I call it gloop because it was taken from the gloop that Pajarita makes although I have made adjustments in the ratios to better match what I have found ( on the internet). I have and continue to read thoroughly the ingredients of the foods that are offered for sale commercially, I read the recommended diets for various parrot species from such places as The world Parrot trust, I like them because their main purpose is to release parrots back into the wild. I read the nutritional information contained in several avian medical texts as well as from several sites that give the nutritional values for individual foods and even though these last are for humans, the nutritional value for a navy bean does not change regardless of who is eating it. I keep looking up information about the natural diets of different parrot species in their natural habitat, I search for and read everything concerning parrot nutrition that I can find from scientific sources and even from various parrot magazines, they do have some good articles, I think. I also read all that is available on parrot nutrition from several parrot forums, you can never tell when there is going to be a great link to another source that you didn't think of or know about. And then after doing all of this I make up my own mind as to what I think is best and run it by my own birds as it doesn't matter how good it is for them if they will not eat it.

This is an ongoing process and is why I keep asking for more information. Sometimes I have something that I just can't agree with, but that is fine, I want the information so that I can make up my own mind concerning it. Just as I keep on reading and asking about the different foods that we feed our birds, I also keep trying to tell everyone to do their own research and make up their own minds. I am not promoting what I feed as being the best diet to be fed, only that up to the point where I promote it that it is the best that I am aware of and again I usually encourage them to do the same thing that I do which is to do their own research and then make up their own minds.

I may not agree with you about the dangers of feeding grains to parrots, but that does not mean that I don't want to know what you think about it and why you think this or that I don't want to know at least some of your sources, because I really am interested in these things. If we don't discuss these things then we all lose out on the possibility of feeding our birds better. I am well aware that I don't know all that there is to know about parrot nutrition, but ultimately I will feed what I think is best in accordance with what I learn and with my understanding of it. I do not feed a thing to my birds because this or that "expert" says to feed it I feed it because I think that it is best for my birds at that time.

[seagoatdeb]

I do promote my gloop recipe as the best that I know of at this time, but I will assure you that when I am comfortable with having found a better diet that I will promote the new one just as much. That is because I do want to feed my birds the best that I can.

I call it gloop because it was taken from the gloop that Pajarita makes although I have made adjustments in the ratios to better match what I have found ( on the internet). I have and continue to read thoroughly the ingredients of the foods that are offered for sale commercially, I read the recommended diets for various parrot species from such places as The world Parrot trust, I like them because their main purpose is to release parrots back into the wild. I read the nutritional information contained in several avian medical texts as well as from several sites that give the nutritional values for individual foods and even though these last are for humans, the nutritional value for a navy bean does not change regardless of who is eating it. I keep looking up information about the natural diets of different parrot species in their natural habitat, I search for and read everything concerning parrot nutrition that I can find from scientific sources and even from various parrot magazines, they do have some good articles, I think. I also read all that is available on parrot nutrition from several parrot forums, you can never tell when there is going to be a great link to another source that you didn't think of or know about. And then after doing all of this I make up my own mind as to what I think is best and run it by my own birds as it doesn't matter how good it is for them if they will not eat it.

This is an ongoing process and is why I keep asking for more information. Sometimes I have something that I just can't agree with, but that is fine, I want the information so that I can make up my own mind concerning it. Just as I keep on reading and asking about the different foods that we feed our birds, I also keep trying to tell everyone to do their own research and make up their own minds. I am not promoting what I feed as being the best diet to be fed, only that up to the point where I promote it that it is the best that I am aware of and again I usually encourage them to do the same thing that I do which is to do their own research and then make up their own minds.

I may not agree with you about the dangers of feeding grains to parrots, but that does not mean that I don't want to know what you think about it and why you think this or that I don't want to know at least some of your sources, because I really am interested in these things. If we don't discuss these things then we all lose out on the possibility of feeding our birds better. I am well aware that I don't know all that there is to know about parrot nutrition, but ultimately I will feed what I think is best in accordance with what I learn and with my understanding of it. I do not feed a thing to my birds because this or that "expert" says to feed it I feed it because I think that it is best for my birds at that time.

Thats all we can do is the best we can and really think and research when we are exposed to new ideas, and it is sure continual when it comes to parrots. They really all did have varied diets in the wild, and i sure can see a differenece between Sunny and Gaugan. Meyers ate a more varied diet and Sunny will eat almost everything offered. Red Bellys diets were more simple and Gaugan is more picky. But she loves what she loves, she hates banana, and doesnt care if the rest of us including Sunny is eating it she thinks its terrible stuff. Her favorites right now are any kind of nut, apples, green grapes and mandarin oranges. Just last month she loved carrots and peas, but not this month. She gets a wide variety so she can choose what she likes and needs. The funniest is the way the two parrots approach food in a dish. Sunny will dig in immediately. Gaugan will stare at the dish for a few minutes and then will dig in.....Sometimes i think she is waiting to see if something moves.

[Pajarita]

I gotta go get supplies from ABBA before noon so I have no time to reply to this now because it will be, most likely, another long one - I will come back to it.

[seagoatdeb]

i had to get apples this morning too, its Gaugans favorite fruit, so always one she is guaranteed to eat

[seagoatdeb]

I had some time so I will post a few links on the dangers of leaving cooked grains and vegetaables out. Cooked vegetables, grains and mixed foods like gloop cannot be left out without having a possibility of a number of bacterias growing in them. These bacterias are found in soils, grains fruits and vegetables and they can be inactive when cooked but become active when sitting in room temperatures. The FDA reccomends not leaving cooked food out for more than 4 hours. The USDA guidlines are not leaving cooked food out for more than 2 hours or if its a really hot temp in your house then only 1 hour.

This is why leaving gloop out for more than 2 hours is not safe.

This link is a NY Times Link using the USDA and its source. It mentions a number of the bacterias that can be in cooked vegetbles and grains left sitting out, which can cause symtoms of illness, but even death in severe cases. There is an expample of death from rice that was left out in this article.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/24/dinin ... .html?_r=0

This next link is information using the USDA as its main source, talking about the danger of leaving cooked food out for no more than 2 hours
http://www.thekitchn.com/how-long-can-y ... cts-218225

This third link is the pdf from the USDA containing information saying to throw out any cooked food that has been kept out for more than 2 hours. http://www.fsis.usda.gov/shared/PDF/Kee ... thttp=true

Raw vegetables can be left out a lot longer. So what I do in the morning is give my parrrots raw vegetables and for my next meal they are thrown out and another served.

If I feed some cooked grains, fruit, beans, or vegetables they are discarded after 2 hours. So I feed them at night most often, or sometimes in the day when i know I will be home to discard.

Frozen vegetable have been blanched, which destroys some of the water soluable vitamins, C and B, but the blanching, because of being a partial cook, means they cant be left out as long as raw, and since i cant find a link to the exact time, and it would only show in food safe courses or links i cant find, the few times i use frozen vegetables, i throw them out after 2 hours.

[Wolf]

It has been a number of years since I worked in the food service industry as a cook, but While your information is correct it is based on the time that it takes for the bacteria to begin to multiply within the food, so in actuality you would still have another hour or two before there is enough bacterial growth to become hazardous to a human with a severely compromised immune system. While I am not promoting that anyone disregard the FDA or USDA guidelines, people should not only be aware of the guidelines but what they mean. So in most cases even 4 hours should be safe for all but a sick bird. They should also be aware that they will not be able to see, smell or taste the change in bacterial growth in the food, so they can't go by that. I am home all day long with my birds, so I have no problem with changing the foods that I provide for all day for my birds. Despite the knowing that there is actually a buffer zone on the time that the food is still safe, it still works like everything else, it is always better to err on the side of caution and it is better to be safe than sorry.

The major reason for my giving this additional information is for those people that work and can't change the food out in less than four hours. They can extend the period of time before needing o change the food out by using two sizes of dishes for the food and adding ice, preferably crushed ice to the first bowl and then putting the second dish down in the ice of the larger dish. They can also give the bird as much as they will eat first thing in the morning and then changing that out as they are leaving and use the ice as well to extend the time so that they can get back home to change it out within the four hour time span. all I am saying is that if we think about this there are things that we can do to get by the time restraints and still remain safe.

Smaller portions of at risk foods and then use foraging toys both simple and as complex as the bird can and will use, more raw produce on ice are together just one way to use the foods to help keep your bird safe while still providing them proper nutrition. Still changing the food out as recommended is the best way, and I am not trying to say that it is not.