Natural Diet for Parrots danger of cooked grains

[Pajarita]

O.K., let's see:

Amount of grains. I actually started with a much higher proportion of grains, different types and of a much, much lower quality than what I am using now (my gloop recipe is and always will be a work in progress) but I have settled for 50% of grains/beans/seeds because it makes for low protein so it allows me to feed it like that during the winter (I add higher and better quality protein items during the breeding season). The main reason for the actual proportion is the final protein content of the meal and nothing else. If I use more, I end up with a higher protein content than what I want for the winter. I don't have (and seriously doubt they even exist) any studies that say that grains are good for parrots or even any papers on it... I think it's pretty much the consensus of all the avian nutritionists that grains are fine for them. They are listed as part of their natural diet in almost any species we keep in captivity and every single parrot food that has been formulated by avian nutritionists and 'experts' uses them so I think it's a matter of 'usual and customary' making it an universally accepted axiom. As a matter of fact and as far as I can tell, avian nutritionists think nothing of feeding them a much larger proportion of grains because even today you see them recommending free-feeding pellets (which are all grain) along some raw produce (and we all know how nearly impossible it is to convince a parrot to eat enough produce when you are free-feeding them protein food) so the percentage of grains in a diet like that would end up been, on a good day, around 90% for sure! Do you have anything reputable that says that grains are not good for parrots? Because, if you do, I would be very interested to see it as I've never found anything anywhere that supports it. Also, what, exactly, is it that you find so offending about feeding parrots grains? You keep on saying that cooked grains are not natural to parrots but, in reality, nothing we feed is natural to parrots, including the diet that you offer. And, although parrots don't eat cooked grains in the wild, they certainly do eat the raw ones and, as cooking them makes them more digestible, I would think that would recommend the practice instead of making it questionable. Now, if the problem is gluten, can you provide anything reputable that proves or even postulates the possibility that parrots are intolerant?

Leaving gloop out - The guidelines that you posted are for ALL food which includes meat and fish and, because of that, they give the maximum period of time before the most perishable of items start growing bacteria in large numbers - think of it as the lower common denominator. But that doesn't mean that EVERYTHING becomes dangerous after two hours (for example, you can store eggs at room temperature for a week without a single problem and bread for days, and even milk can be left outside the fridge for an entire day before it sours). I've done lots and lots of research on this and never found anything specific to grains but the links I gave you were all relevant because they deal, specifically, with the only real danger to cooked grains left unrefrigerated: Bacillus cereus (there was no part of them that was more important than the rest and that's why I did not point out a specific section of them, they should be read in their entirety as everything there is relevant in one way or another). There are other sources of food poisoning but they are all either caused by contamination, lack of adequate hygiene or improper canning techniques (things like E.coli, salmonella, botulism, etc) so they don't really apply if you use soap and water and avoid cross-contamination. If you read the links I provided (two of them from the government, one from Wikipedia given as general information and the last from a medical source with all the references under it so, yes, all the sources were there clearly stated and, with the exception of Wikipedia, all of them were reputable), you will see that there are two forms of this bacillus, the one that causes diarrhea and the one that causes vomiting although, generally, when they talk about this bacillus, they lump the symptoms from both forms together (which is what you quoted) but only the emetic form survives cooking. Both cause short-lived problems (only 24 hours or so) and are never fatal unless the immune system is compromised and treatment is not prompt (which was why the one year old baby died). There were several cases back in the 70's in USA but all were found to have been caused by Chinese restaurants cooking enough rice to last two and even three days that was left unrefrigerated in the kitchen all day and all night so we are talking high temperatures and exposure of over 24 hours in every case (the gloop stays out for less than 12 hours, the birdroom is never that hot -not even in the summer- and, in truth, the birds don't even touch it in the afternoon, they all rather wait for their dinner).

You talk about "Your parrot cant tell you when they are not feeling tip top, and it cant be good for them to be bombarded daily with bacteria grown in mixtures that sit around all day" but, as I said before, the gloop doesn't sit around an entire day and there is no 'daily bombardment' of bacteria (a bit hyperbolic, isn't it?). Bacterial food infections don't work that way, there is no cumulative effect (I don't think there is a cumulative exposure effect on any bacterial infection, if there is, I haven't found anything that even mentions it) so even if they eat a bit one day, it won't be there the next. We all consume bad bacteria daily but a body with a healthy immune system kills it on its own (either gastric juices, good bacteria and, sometimes, even other bad bacteria). Food poisoning happens when the body ingests such a large amount of bacteria in one sitting that it cannot fight it on its own but, when that happens, the symptoms appear either within minutes (as it's the case with the emetic form of the B. cereus) or within hours and up to two days for other types of bacteria. So, the fact that the birds have never gotten sick might not convince you but, according to science, is incontrovertible proof that it's fine. If the gloop had enough bacteria to make them sick in any one day, all of them would come down with the same symptoms at the same time (vomiting and/or diarrhea and/or loss of appetite and/or lethargy, etc). As a matter of fact, I fed gloop exactly this way when I had the chlamydiosis epidemic without any kind of bad consequence so, even with a depressed immune system, their digestive system was able to deal with whatever amount of bacteria was there with no problem so it was obviously low enough to be no problem.

Promoting the diet and the leaving it out. I don't actually 'promote' anything, I simply tell them what I do, what has worked for me for many years and what I've learned from research and experienced BUT I also always tell people to do their own research. If people want to be extra careful and throw away all the bird's food after two hours, it's fine with me as long as they don't leave it without any food for hours. But I think it's entirely unnecessary - and that's the only thing I tell them and nobody has ever come back accusing me of causing their bird food poisoning so I guess it works for them, too. People seem to be obsessed with bacteria nowadays... it's like bacteria has become a bad word and exposure to it a sure dead sentence - everything is 'antibacterial', children are not allowed to play in the dirt any longer, you have to wash your hands or use the hand sanitizers every time you touch anything, etc. etc. But if all that was really necessary, humankind would have become extinct thousands of years ago and, in my personal opinion, the only thing you achieve when you do this all the time is end up with a weak immune system.

[seagoatdeb]

Yes Wolf I agree and it depends on how hot it is inside too, but it was promoting keeping these gloop mixtures out all day that worried me. Also what causes me worry, is keeping frozen vegetables out. it is not like having a food at home you can wash. They are flash frozen at the site and although the quick blanching can kill a lot of things, frozen vegetables are not washed like you can do at home, so when they are left out they can have any bacteria already on them. The Listeria recalls are an example of that.

Pajarita, i was referring to posts where you were telling people that it was okay to leave gloop out all day. You are not right that it is only about meat and fish.....vegetables and grains were talked about and i gave you the link. You are usually the first one to use caution. I am not saying it is a cummualtive effect. What i am saying is if your bird is fighting off bacteria, it is weakening the parrot, so it may be open to other things. These things need to be discussed as they can affect a parrots health. I am not saying that you specifically may be leaving it out for too long, i am saying when you tell people its okay to leave Gloop out while they are at work, they may leave it out even longer as they have been told its safe. So i am showing that, most of the time you will have no problem but if you make a practice leaving cooked foods out for too long, something can happen. Thats why there are guidlines. if you would not eat the gloop yourself after sitting out, that long, then dont do that to your parrot either. Do your best to keep food fresh.

[Wolf]

Technically when we try to explain what it is that we do, it is promoting that thing, but it is not promoting it in as far as common usage and understanding of what promotion is. And we both encourage people to do their own research, often even when we have not even mentioned gloop or how we feed it.

Yes, we need to do the very best that we can for our birds and diet is just one area of this. Also it is not good to be overprotective about exposure to bacteria, germs or other things because it has been proven time and again that the overprotectiveness is as bad as overexposure to the same things as both result in a compromised immune system. One that is incapable of dealing with the normal everyday environment that we all live in.

[Pajarita]

Pajarita, i was referring to posts where you were telling people that it was okay to leave gloop out all day. You are not right that it is only about meat and fish.....vegetables and grains were talked about and i gave you the link. You are usually the first one to use caution. I am not saying it is a cummualtive effect. What i am saying is if your bird is fighting off bacteria, it is weakening the parrot, so it may be open to other things. These things need to be discussed as they can affect a parrots health. I am not saying that you specifically may be leaving it out for too long, i am saying when you tell people its okay to leave Gloop out while they are at work, they may leave it out even longer as they have been told its safe. So i am showing that, most of the time you will have no problem but if you make a practice leaving cooked foods out for too long, something can happen. Thats why there are guidlines. if you would not eat the gloop yourself after sitting out, that long, then dont do that to your parrot either. Do your best to keep food fresh.

I would not eat gloop when it's fresh! And, yes, I tell people that it's fine because, as far as I can tell through research and experience, it is. Obviously, I cannot control the conditions the food is prepared so there is, on my part, the assumption that the people who ask this question is been careful about proper washing, cross-contamination, etc. but this is something you can't mention because people would think you are calling them dirty or something... Me, I am VERY careful, I wash EVERTYHING with soap and water (I even soak the greens in a soap and water solution), have different boards for chopping veggies and meat, have four sponges (2 for dishes and 2 for counters) that are rotated so they dry completely after been used, I don't use plastic but stainless steel, etc

Again, the links you provided were two of them for food in general and the third was referring to meat broth. But, even raw meat can be left outside all day long, even in the summer, without a problem.

As to your statement "I am not saying it is a cummualtive effect. What i am saying is if your bird is fighting off bacteria, it is weakening the parrot, so it may be open to other things. These things need to be discussed as they can affect a parrots health." You are looking at it the wrong way, Seagoatdeb, it is actually exactly the opposite. Fighting off a normal amount of pathogens on a regular basis does not weaken the immune system, it actually strengthens it! It's the not allowing the body and immune system to perform as they were meant to by eliminating exposure to pathogens that is dangerous. There is something called 'immune tolerance', different from 'immune resistance' which is the first response of the body has when confronted with a pathogen, namely, it fights it and tries to kill it. BUT (and here comes the kick), when a body is exposed to mild amounts of non-fatal pathogens on a regular basis, the body first tries to kill it but, eventually, it develops 'immune tolerance' where both the immune system and the organs 'adapt' to the pathogen (there is a wonderfully interesting paper called "Disease tolerance as a defense strategy" -I forget the other two authors but one of them is Miguel Soares). This is the way that nature meant for all organisms on Earth to live, it's the way we evolved -namely, to thrive in a natural environment where there are pathogens everywhere. The new-fangled obsession for disinfection and almost complete avoidance of pathogens in our daily life is what has caused all the allergies and intolerances the human race is suffering nowadays (read about the hygiene hypothesis and you'll see).

[seagoatdeb]

Technically when we try to explain what it is that we do, it is promoting that thing, but it is not promoting it in as far as common usage and understanding of what promotion is. And we both encourage people to do their own research, often even when we have not even mentioned gloop or how we feed it.

Yes, we need to do the very best that we can for our birds and diet is just one area of this. Also it is not good to be overprotective about exposure to bacteria, germs or other things because it has been proven time and again that the overprotectiveness is as bad as overexposure to the same things as both result in a compromised immune system. One that is incapable of dealing with the normal everyday environment that we all live in.

I dont think following food safe guides is being overprotective. I am hoping this encourage others to research how long it is safe to leave out the particular kind of food they need.

[Wolf]

When it comes to food, I can't think of one area that people need to research more than any other area. We should be very aware of what we feed them, why we are feeding them what foods and how much not only for the nutritional balance but to be able to avoid the most heavily contaminated foods that are sold at our stores as well as how long the food is left out and at what temperatures these foods are going to be to start with and what temperature it will be left out I'm as well as anything that we can do to make it safely last longer. Food is perhaps the most important thing that we can learn about to protect our birds health. So we all need to do our own research as well as share that research to help others and make up our own minds as to what we feel is best for our own birds. and it is an area that we all really need to research on a regular basis as there is so much that we still do not know.

[Pajarita]

I dont think following food safe guides is being overprotective. I am hoping this encourage others to research how long it is safe to leave out the particular kind of food they need.

Well, if you think about it, government regulations are all about overprotection - they were designed that way on purpose. And, as far as I know, not even restaurants follow them to the letter.

[Wolf]

Well I can't say about restaurants in the last 10 years or so, but I know that the ones that I worked at followed those guidelines as closely as possible.

[seagoatdeb]

They follow food safe guidlines in Canada in restaurants.

[Pajarita]

Yes, everybody thinks or, at least, hopes that is the case but reality is different. Think about it, if every single restaurant followed all the rules, there wouldn't be any need for inspections or schedules of infractions and penalties -which happens ALL the time only people don't find out because they need to find a certain number of infractions for the Health Dept to shut them down because they get a 'passing grade' even when they do find a few infractions.

I worked in a school cafeteria fairly recently (I wanted to get out of the house and this job was great because it was for a few hours Monday through Friday and the entire summer was off) and can assure you that food stayed out longer than two hours every single day. We took out the stuff from the fridge and started preparing it when we first came in (7 am), started cooking at 10:30 am and the last lunch was served at 1:30 pm (you do the math). I did the deli and I started preparing my cold cuts and salads at 8:00 am and everything stayed out until 2pm when we started putting everything away and cleaning. I also used to work (many, many years ago when I first came to the States) in a Howard Johnson restaurant (it was like a school cafeteria style with lines of people moving through a long line of different foods they served themselves) and a People's Drug Store soda fountain (we served breakfast and lunch, too) and I can assure you that food was left out during the day in both places. Putting EVERYTHING back in the fridge after two hours when you are going to continue using it on and off for hours to come is completely impractical and nobody does it. Do you put everything back in the fridge after two hours of taking it out? Of course not! I had a little get-together when my son and his family came over and I cooked in the early afternoon even though the people were invited for 6:30 pm and the food was served at 8 pm -and not only nobody got food poisoning but people took doggie bags home.