African Grey Plucking - advice needed please :(

[Prim]

Hiya all,

I’ve been a lurker for a while and picked up lots of helpful advice and tips along the way, but I’m stumped at the moment . Sorry in advance for the long post, as it’s my first one, I thought I should include a bit of history

We’ve had our AG Smokey for around 7 years. He was already around 1 when we got him and didn’t have a very good start and had a few bad habits as a result...couldn’t be handled at all, screaming etc.

He’s our first bird, so having him, especially with his behaviour and history was a sharp learning curve for us all, but here we are years later and although he’s not the best behaved grey at times, he’s so much better and has a lovely bond with my husband (we think He maybe a She lol).

All was great up until around October. He’s never plucked and always seemed content, but he puffed up one morning and I noticed a small area where there were a few feathers missing, quite high up on his chest. The downy undercoat was still there and it otherwise looked healthy, so although I thought it was strange, I assumed that maybe he was growing a few new ones. Skip forward to December and the small patch had grown to that of a 10p coin and it’s still the same today. It hasn’t got any bigger and all his other feathers are fine. Sometimes the downy undercoat is there and sometimes I can see his skin. He’s got a constant regrowth of new feathers, but he’s pulling them out when they are still tubes and often never get the chance to unfurl any feather. We’ll get to the point where he’s got lots of tubes on the area, enough new feathers to re-cover the area, then in one day they’ll all end up on the bottom of his cage

We haven’t changed anything apart from a new dog last February. We thought maybe the dog was bothering Smokey, so we don’t allow them in the same room and keep the birds room door closed when we go out. We’ve had one dog for years and they’ve always got along well, Smokey enjoys playing with her, but I’m wondering if our second dog is different and Smokey doesn’t like her.

He’s got a tidy sized cage, UV light, plenty of toys and I’m giving him boredom breakers to strip, so he’s always got something to shred. We’ve tried both newspapers and sand (always kids play sand) on the bottom of his cage. He’s not clipped and out of his cage a lot, on Harrison’s High Potency Corse food, has been for years and has other fresh food and nuts, although he doesn’t really like much fruit and veg, it ends up on the bottom of the cage untouched. I’m putting Flourish powder on his food at the moment too.

Its not getting any worse, but it’s not getting better either. I’ve been about to call the vet a few times, but they always seem to be growing back when I do and I think “right, maybe I’ve solved it” only for him to loose them again a few days later. I’ve never seen him pulling them, but I’m assuming that’s what he’s doing. Is it possible that they are falling out? I thought mites or something, but as it’s not spreading...

Sorry for the long post, I’m just getting concerned about how much work all this feather regrowth could be draining his body and I’ve read how difficult it can be to break a plucking habit once it’s set in. Does anyone have any advice on what this could be and how I stop it please?

[Pajarita]

Hi, Prim and Smokey. Welcome to the forum and I am sorry that your bird is plucking - it is always so distressing when they do it and even more so when they start under our watch (I know because I have three birds that pluck myself).

Now, if you have been lurking and reading postings here you must already know that his diet is very bad. I am not trying to make you feel bad because I know how confusing the information on a parrot's good diet can be! All that contradicting information out there in the net plus what the avian vets tell us (which, in most cases, is not even an informed recommendation as few of them have birds and they do not study parrot nutrition to get their certification) makes it VERY hard to figure out what is good and what is not. This, added to an unregulated industry that lies on their labels makes it VERY hard for us, bird keepers. But, I can tell you one thing: nobody should ever feed High Potency to a healthy animal or an animal that is not breeding. In truth, I don't believe that High Potency should be fed AT ALL under any circumstances. This product used to have a warning on the label telling people to use it for never longer than six months and only for sick, undernourished or breeding birds. I do not know why they removed this label because this product is a bomb of protein and vitamins/minerals but I guess it's because they wanted to expand the reach of it -more sales means more profit. Also, I don't know if you have access to the information but I could not find a complete list of ingredients for the Flourish - all I found was Herbal blend (?) and lots of minerals. Not good! Herbs are all natural but not all herbs are good and there are few of them that can be taken all the time without any side effects so one needs to know what is what in the product. As to the minerals... same thing, a little bit is good, a lot is not - and as the High Potency already has too much of everything, when you add to it, you are not making things better (one single example, too much calcium is as bad as too little). See, the thing with birds is that, in order to feed them right, we not only need to do A LOT of research, we also need to change out entire outlook on nutrition - and that is not an easy thing to do because we were 'trained' from childhood to believe that more is better but, with birds, it's not. Birds do not have a good, balanced, rich diet all the time. They are not only seasonal eaters (resting season -aka winter- being a time when they don't get enough of anything) but their diet is not naturally rich, either (there are no natural sources of abundant, high protein in nature).

The first thing you need to do is change his diet immediately. Now, going by my own experience with grays, this is going to take a long time and a lot of work because they are picky eaters and that is no joke! But it can be done if one is persistent, consistent and patient. I always recommend gloop because, in my personal opinion and experience, it's the best staple food for them - I would not feed it to my birds if I did not think so. I would also put him on a detox regimen (because you have been feeding way too much protein and that damages their liver so a cleansing is in order). Non-alcoholic liquid milk thistle extract (about 1/2 dropperful to 3 to 4 oz of water is good) in his water mix (because it needs to be 2/3 spring water and 1/3 organic aloe vera juice -not gel- from the inner filet -not the whole leaf) and add 1/4 capsule of dandelion root, 1/4 capsule of milk thistle and 1/4 capsule of methionine to his gloop (also add some chili powder, the merest sprinkle of cinnamon -the real kind, not the fake, ginger or some other spice to hide the flavor in case he does not like it). Do this for two whole weeks and then reduce it every other day for another two and then just do the milk thistle in his water from them on. No pellets whatsoever! For dinner, give him nuts (like half a walnut, one pistachio, one or two almonds - imagine the size of his crop and give enough for it to be filled and the tiniest amount extra). He does not need any vitamins or minerals because he has too much of them in his system as it is but, in the future (after 6 to 8 weeks) start him on a powder multivitamin/minerals that you can add a single daily doses (the product will say that you need to do it everyday but it's not true, not when the bird is eating a good diet) to his water twice a week (and don't put any milk thistle extract in it when you do the vitamins but you can put aloe vera, if you want). Now, do not give up after a few months when you see the bird is not eating what you give him. Grays take a longer time than other birds to reach a point when one can say they are eating a nice range of veggies and fruits - I had one that took 5 years (FIVE YEARS!) to try her first blueberry, something all birds like, that she got once a week for the entire 5 years and that she saw all the other birds eating! So, keep at it even though there is going to be a lot of good stuff that will end up in the trash. Best thing you can do with a gray is put him on your shoulder and eat the fruit yourself - if he is like all the other grays I've cared for, he will want to try what you are eating - and, when he does, give him a piece or offer the side where you did not bite into it and PRAISE PRAISE PRAISE!

The other thing -and I am sure you already read about this here- is the light schedule. You don't mention if he is under a human or a bird's one but I suspect it's a human because, when medium to large species males are kept at a human schedule, they start acting up around his age (they develop sexually between 2 and 3 years of age, the sexual hormones accumulate for the next 5, 6 years which is, apparently, the period of time needed for the gonads to grow to a really uncomfortable size). For some reason, 6, 7 and 8 years of age is the age when well-loved birds start plucking (the ones that are neglected or abused start sooner).

So, start his new diet, put him on a detox regimen and make sure he is kept at a strict solar schedule with an exposure to dawn and dusk of two hours (no less because you need to hurry on this as the longer they pluck, the harder it is to stop them and grays are hard to reverse when it comes to plucking because they are high-strung birds).

Let me know if there is anything that needs further clarification.

[Prim]

Hiya Pajarita,
Thank you so much for taking the time to respond to my concerns in such depth, I really appreciate it

Now, if you have been lurking and reading postings here you must already know that his diet is very bad.

I’m ashamed to say that I honestly thought that his diet was okay and was the last thing I considered to be an issue. He wasn’t on the pellets when we got him, he was on a cheap seed diet and nothing else, unless you count cigarette smoke, he had plenty of that (hence the name). We moved him off that and onto a low sunflower seed variety within days of him coming home to wean him off his sunflower seed addiction, then onto the Harrison’s HP on the advice of our vet. He’s a well trusted avian and exotic animal vet, so I didn’t hesitate in following his advice . He said that he should be on it permanently, due to the greys issues with low calcium absorption.

When I’ve come on the forum in the past, I usually use the search facility to find what I’m looking for and then browse a few of the other recent posts, I’ve never really taken too much notice of the food questions because I genuinely believed he was on the best thing for him. I’ll get all of the gloop ingredients and make up a batch, thank you for your recipe and detox advice.

Birds do not have a good, balanced, rich diet all the time. They are not only seasonal eaters (resting season -aka winter- being a time when they don't get enough of anything) but their diet is not naturally rich, either (there are no natural sources of abundant, high protein in nature).

Makes total sense when you think about it. There’s so much talk about how humans should eat seasonally nowadays, our birds definitely should too.

Now, going by my own experience with grays, this is going to take a long time and a lot of work because they are picky eaters and that is no joke! But it can be done if one is persistent, consistent and patient. Now, do not give up after a few months when you see the bird is not eating what you give him. Grays take a longer time than other birds to reach a point when one can say they are eating a nice range of veggies and fruits - I had one that took 5 years (FIVE YEARS!) to try her first blueberry, something all birds like, that she got once a week for the entire 5 years and that she saw all the other birds eating! So, keep at it even though there is going to be a lot of good stuff that will end up in the trash.

We’ve tried him with everything over the years and even now I’m sure everything fresh ends up on the bottom of the cage. We will keep going though

Best thing you can do with a gray is put him on your shoulder and eat the fruit yourself - if he is like all the other grays I've cared for, he will want to try what you are eating - and, when he does, give him a piece or offer the side where you did not bite into it and PRAISE PRAISE PRAISE!

He loves to sit on Mr Prims shoulder and share his food, so I’ll get him on the case.

The other thing -and I am sure you already read about this here- is the light schedule. You don't mention if he is under a human or a bird's one but I suspect it's a human because...

He does have a natural day schedule some days (dawn till dusk), but I do confess that he also has late nights, especially on weekends. Mr Prim has him with him until late while he plays his xbox. Smokey does go back into his cage himself and says “night night” when he’s had enough, but it is very late and long after dusk That’ll be stopping now.

make sure he is kept at a strict solar schedule with an exposure to dawn and dusk of two hours

What do you mean “of two hours” please?

Thank you very much again for your time and advice

[Pajarita]

Yes, grays are VERY picky and quite stubborn about their diets so it takes a lot of finagling and patience to bring them to a healthy diet but, if you do it right and keep at it, it happens. The gray I have now, Sophie CAG, ate crap before she came to me. And I do mean CRAP! Popcorn, pieces of bread and seeds and more seeds. But she now eats a nice range of veggies and fruits as well as her gloop. There are tricks you can use. The 'parrots sees, parrot does' is one of them which, combined with the 'I want what YOU have' is actually quite effective so, yes, do tell Mr. Prim to eat fruit in the morning with her on his shoulder and see what happens. Mind you, he should not even offer her a piece of his fruits, he should eat it making yummy noises - there must be a phrase, a word or a sound you make when you put her food out so tell him to use it - and, if you don't have any kind of 'food mantra', start using one. Parrots are very altricial birds that are born not only completely defenseless (naked, blind and not able to move by themselves) but also with zero knowledge of what they are supposed to eat so they learn from their parents and flock-mates - as we become the parents (when we get babies) or flock-mates when they are adults, our eating something that we have (through a word, phrase or sound) identified as 'good food', assures them that it's OK to eat it - or, at least, try it. Like I said, it will take time and you will waste a lot of food but the food waste is normal with parrots... more than half of it ends up on the floor. It's actually a wild 'pre-programmed' behavior and part of their ecological niche (they feed ground species and spread seeds - we have studies that prove this).

Another trick which is very important is the timing. You need to give her only enough protein food for dinner that would fill up her crop and a teeny tiny extra and, either super early in the morning (when it's still too dark for them to eat) or late at night (after the bird falls asleep), take the protein food away so, in the morning, the bird will be good and hungry (no better sauce than hunger!). So, take away the protein food and tell Mr. Prim to wait about one hour after there is enough light in the sky for her to eat and then eat the fruit with her on his shoulder without feeding her anything else. And, for the gloop, you need to use 'tough love', put it there in the morning and do not give her any protein food until the evening - even if it doesn't eat any of it (which it won't for the first two or three days). It won't starve because there is food available and it's still getting dinner.

Then you have personal preference but, as this bird does not eat enough of a range now to actually determine what it is that it would like best, you can try what I have found my gray likes best and this is crunchy (as in the very heart of the romaine lettuce and the stalks of greens like Swiss Chard, celery, Bok Choy, etc). Then you have shapes that seem to be attractive to them, like Brussels sprouts (they like to hold them in their hands and tear them slowly to shreds) and, when it comes to fruits, they like juicy (like oranges, cantaloupe, pears, grapes, blackberries). And last but not least, there is the universal favorites: apples and corn on the cob (they ALL love corn on the cob very lightly cooked so it's still crunchy and juicy when they bite into the kernels).

Start her on a simple grain gloop (with just large grains like Kamut, Spelt, oat groats, etc) cooked very lightly (15-20 minutes of simmering) and mix this with a sprinkle of seeds (not sunflowers, little grass seeds like a budgie seed mix would have) at the beginning (this not only entices them to the food but also helps them make the connection that the grains are food, just like the seeds).

The two hours of twilight are very important because, without the exposure to dawn and dusk, you don't really have a solar schedule even if you cover the cage at night. See, the thing is that it is this special light that ONLY happens during twilight that turns on or off their 'internal clock'. It's like a stop watch. It turns on with the light of dawn, runs all day and then turns off with the light of dusk - and the number of hours in between these two events is what is registered by their glands as the length of the day. This 'feeds' into what is called the point of photorefractoriness which is what evolution determined when the body should start or stop producing sexual hormones so the species would only breed when all conditions are best for reproducing. When you don't expose them to this light and/or when you vary the length of the days from weekday to weekend or whatever, their bodies become confused. Research avian photoperiodism, avian reproductive system and avian endocrine system and you will see what I mean.

And yes, avian vets always recommend pellets... even the ones that never had birds or never studied parrot nutrition (there is no parrot nutrition chapter on avian medicine books and, even if there was, in order for it to be complete, they would have to list all the different species we keep as companions -which would not be practical at all). Sheesh, I had an avian vet recommend pellets for canaries which are not only natural seed eaters, they have been domesticated and bred by humans since the 1400's so we know most everything we need to know about them and their needs! Ridiculous! I had bad, mediocre and good avian vets and the best ones, who had kept multiple parrots of their own for years, admitted to me that the only reason why they recommend them is not that they think it's the best dietary option for them but because they do not trust people to feed them right - which I found to be very condescending of them, to be honest. If you think about it, a super dry (parrots diets are 85 to 95% moisture, pellets are max 10% and they never drink enough water to compensate for it -they are prey animals so they are strictly crepuscular feeders) processed food (parrots eat a all raw food diet in the wild), dead (no phytonutrients whatsoever because of the processing), that has lab-made vitamins added to it (instead of natural, food-derived ones) couldn't possibly be the best dietary option for them.

Oh, one more thing. You can tell if you have a male or a female. Look at the wing tips when the bird is perching, if the tips reach the end of the tail, it's a female, if they are shorter, it's a male.