Nicotine Withdrawls?

[Ex.Libris.Ritter]

Hi Everyone! New to the forums! New to owning Birds Sort of a long story short, I have inherited some family birds. (1 Senegal, 2 Parrotlets, 3 Weaver Finches). The family member had them for 5 years, and has fallen into bad health and is reaching end of life. So for the last few months, the flock has been not well looked after. No out of cage time, no talk time. No beak, toe, and wing trimming. Just mainly fresh food and water and that's been it.

She kept them in an enclosed porch area, in which she smoked in. It was the only area of the house she would smoke. Enclosed, with all the birds. And we are talking a 1-2 pack a day smoker. (Our household doesn't smoke.)

We got Danny (Senegal) and the flock 2 weeks ago. After a long 8 hour trip. And its been an adjustment. So I've been spending the last week and a half with 30min- 1 hour time just with them. Giving Danny and the flock treats and as much vocal love as possible. Danny has been my main concern. He asks for head scratches through the cage door, but as far as open door , and reaching in, not so much. (I've been beak pinched a few times now (I would rather slam my finger in a car door)) The last 2 days hes been "out of sorts". Normally our 1 on 1 time consists of him "dancing" and chattering up a storm, me treat coaxing him for some trust , him sitting at the front of his cage and chattering and cooing and being very personable. Spoiling him with his favorite treats and snacks (Still not stepping up onto my hand, but he at least will step onto a cup Im holding). But...the last 2 days, hes been...quiet. Very little chattering. No dancing. And seems to be grooming a lot. His food seems picked over and not much eaten. He eats the treats during our time, but its grabbing them from the cup and going back to his back perch area. But seems to keep himself turned away from the front of the cage. His hissing has died down a bit. But hes now started this beak grinding noise. Its like a switch has been flipped...

After more hum drum time last night, and me being more worried. I started going through more of their items last night, I pulled out some of his older toys that were sent with him, thinking that maybe some old toys would cheer him up. (We did put -some- of the not badly worn down toys into his cage for something familiar) . And they (I'm sorry) reeked of cig smoke, the wood toys, the paper, chew stuff, smelled stale. I started conversing with my husband about it, and he brought up an odd question. Do you think Danny is going through Nicotine withdrawals?

And it made me wonder if he really was. Any input or info on this would be amazing at this point. Because right now its got me beside myself. Because its a drastic change all of a sudden. Either that or hes realized that his old owner isn't around anymore.

[Pajarita]

Hi, Ritter, welcome to the forum and thank you for taking on the huge responsibility and long commitment of caring for parrots.

Now, two weeks is nothing when it comes to a parrot adjusting to a new home - much less a new human. The recommended protocol is to let them be on their own for the first two weeks (no asking for step-up, no putting your hand in the cage, not even coming out of the cage) because they need that time to get used to the sight, smells, noises, schedules and routines of the new home and the best way to do this is to start them off the right way: strict solar schedule, crepuscular feeding, right diet (no free-feeding any protein food, raw produce, etc) and, most of all, stick to the same exact daily routine.

Once the two or three weeks are up, you start by opening the door to the cage and walking away at dawn (no artificial light on). Once the bird leaves the cage, you clean it and put out fresh raw produce. Then, when the two hours of twilight without artificial lights are up, you put out grain breakfast (I recommend gloop and raw produce). For the next following weeks, you should play it by ear, observing the bird's actions and reactions to figure out if and when the bird wants to take a step to a closer relationship with you - things like the bird eagerly waiting for your presence, moving closer to you, flying to you, etc. You should talk, sing, whistle, dance, etc to the bird and, every now and then (but not all day long, no more than 3 or 4 times a day, and never before its meal), you offer a small treat -something like a piece of a nut, my Senegals' high value item is cashews for both of them and, after cashews, English walnuts but you would have to figure out which nut is yours high value item to use as a special treat.

Now, as to the bird being exposed to smoke... well, you did not say how long this had been going on but, if this went on for a few years, I can assure you that these birds have lung damage already and, unfortunately, because birds' respiratory system is completely different from ours, those lungs might never be completely clean (birds cannot cough so the 'bad' stuff cannot be 'coughed up') so you are going to have to be VERY diligent on making sure they get clean, fresh, moist oxygen rich air all the time. I am talking a large (it has to be larger than what is recommended for the size of the room where they are) and powerful air purifier always on in the room where they are kept, a humidifier during all the cold weather months and opening a window a crack so there is always fresh air coming in and replacing the 'dirty' air. This might sound like a lot to anybody who did not have birds before but it's actually pretty standard for bird care - I don't have birds with damaged lungs but I still have both a humidifier and an air purifier for mine and there is is a window crack open 24/7/365 on each floor of my house even on the coldest of days). Is the bird going through nicotine withdrawal? Hmmmm, I don't think so. Mind you, I am not arguing that the birds did have nicotine in their bloodstream but it takes about 3 days for a human to get rid of it and you've had these birds for two weeks already so, although I do believe that it took longer for them because they are caged (bad 'things' in the bloodstream can only be eliminated through exercise and the only exercise birds have is flying, nothing else), I am sure that the nicotine has already disappeared from their bodies. It's the tar that stays in the lungs that is the problem here because birds do not have phlegm to cleanse them out and, even if they did, they cannot 'cough it up'.

The birds are now on what we call 'the honeymoon period' which means they are on their best behavior (kind of fading into the woodwork) while they figure out whether the unfamiliar environment is dangerous or not (this normally lasts about 2 to 3 months). Usually, birds gradually feel more at home and start moving around more as well as making more noises so Danny's behavior is atypical in that, going by your post, he is going 'backwards' instead of forward but if you started trying to interact with him too soon this might be his way of telling you that he needs more time to figure things out on his own. But it can also mean that he is sick - let me explain. The bare minimum requirements are 4 hours of out of cage and 1 hour of one-on-one but, if you ask me, this is not enough for Senegals. Senegals are not only highly intelligent, they also bond very deeply and, because of this, they require much more personal attention than other species so the half an hour to one hour a day you've been spending with him is not going to be anywhere near enough for him in the future. The reason why sickness is a very distinct possibility is that pet birds are VERY prone to respiratory infections due to bad diet (you did not say what the bird was eating before or what you are feeding it now but if they don't get enough betacarotene for sufficient vit A production their respiratory system suffers) and not enough flight (when birds don't fly, their respiratory system atrophies and an atrophied organ is very prone to infection). If you add the cigarette smoke to this AND the stress of being moved to a new home, you have a very distinct possibility that the bird is sick.

My recommendation to you is that you re-evaluate his diet immediately and observe him very carefully for any other symptoms for the next 24 hours: lethargy, fluffed up during the day, lack of appetite, discharge (from nares -nostrils- or eyes), sneezes, tail bob or chest visibly pumping when in repose, weakness in flight, etc - and, if you see any, take him to the vet immediately (and I do mean immediately because there is not time to waste with sick birds) as he is going to need antibiotics and/or antifungal (the other real bad thing they get with stress, bad diet and bad lungs is aspergillosis because the pathogen is EVERYWHERE and it is only through a strong and healthy immune system that they don't get infected so weak immune system = aspergillosis).

Let me know if there is anything more that I can help with.

[Ex.Libris.Ritter]

Hi, Ritter, welcome to the forum and thank you for taking on the huge responsibility and long commitment of caring for parrots. Let me know if there is anything more that I can help with.

Thank you for the info!! Its been a learning experience (and somewhat over whelming!) and I've been hunting here and there and different sources for info. The forums here seemed like the best and most helpful place!

Most knowledge I have gotten has been from the previous owner, as she is not well, but still able to talk and give some advise. And then random reading so your info below was extremely helpful!

5 days a week (so far) the whole flock has been on a strict schedule. Working a lot around my work schedule times. On Sat/Sun the times maybe off by a bit but not by hours. I have -attempted- to keep their feeding habits the way they were. (slightly hopeful to keep some normal in whats happened). Grain foods in the mornings (I'm feeding them what was given to me as it is what they were already on and used to, it came to me not in bags so I'll be majorly open for grain food suggestions (I do shop with chewy)). With fresh veggies in the morning like the previous owner was doing. Danny has been passing up on the veggies , while the Parrotlets (Bonnie & Clyde) are in a craze with the fresh veggies in the morning and flock to the bowl once its in their site (and they normally clean it out by the time I get home) In the evenings I clean out the veggies and give them fresh fruit (which is something the previous did not do, they haven't been to keen on the fruit yet).

Danny was bribed with cashews as a treat and to get him to do what they needed him to do (they sent a large container of them) . So far I have found Danny to love pistachios, which he gets one in the evenings as I do my "time" with them. Sort of my peace offering to him. Theres already plans for dedicated Danny time, my main worry right now was getting him stable and comfortable and used to the household.

Thank you for the info, and it will help me be less "pushy" when it comes to working with him and getting him comfortable. I've already started looking into investing some air pure machines for the room to get them on a better track. Danny is 11 (his previous owner had him for 6 years and then went to my family member who had him for 5 years, and shes always smoked). We have a vet whos already up to date on the family situation .

[Pajarita]

Great on the bettering of the diet! And yes, taking on parrots and trying to learn how to care for them properly is, indeed, overwhelming but, thankfully for new parrots owners, there are lots of good information out there while, regrettably, there are also lots of bad information, too. The difficult thing for the first time owner is to figure out which info is good and which is not but, when it comes to diet, all you have to do is go to their natural diet and determine what the macronutrients (protein, fat, moisture, fiber, etc) levels are and stick to them. Now, you don't say exactly what type of 'grain' food he eats in the morning but, unless this food has vitamins and minerals added to it and the bird eats enough of it, they have to be low in calcium and D3, if nothing else -which I doubt. If they have not been getting an enriched food, please put them on a good quality multivitamin/mineral supplement. Now, as to which kind. The most effective kind is powder added to food because vitamins degrade in moisture so drops in water are really not very good in terms of what the bird actually gets BUT the problem with the powder on food is that it is almost impossible to give them the exact dosage. I use a powder vit/min that dissolves in water (ABBA 2000) and what I do is take the water bowls the night before (after they are asleep) and put the fresh medicated water at dawn (parrots will always drink almost all the water they will consume during the day very early in the am). This actually allows you to give them the perfect dosage at a high effectiveness level. Why? Because each bird will drink pretty much an almost exactly pre-determined number of sips every single day and, as the bird consumes it almost immediately after being prepared, the vitamins had not had enough time to degrade a whole lot. I give my birds the supplement twice a week and I use from 1.5 to 2 times the daily recommended dosage (I am doing the 2 times now because the long day breeders are preparing for a breeding season but I will go down to 1.5 once they go into molt) because my birds eat a large range of produce (both raw and frozen/thawed) so most of their nutritional needs are met by the diet BUT I cannot feed them anything that has vit D3 (because only animal products have it and parrots are strictly vegans) and they cannot produce it themselves (because they need to be directly exposed to sunlight for, at least, 20 minutes every day -something impossible to do). But, whenever I get a 'new' bird that has had a bad diet, I give it a daily dosage every day for, at least, 2 weeks (the length of time this is needed depends on the actual diet the bird has had in the past and for how long) and then reduce it to the 'normal' twice a week as all my other birds get. And don't forget to put out some calcium source like cuttlebone or a mineral block - birds do get calcium from many dietary sources (almonds, broccoli, sesame seeds, etc) but they cannot absorb it into their system without the vit D3 so giving them an extra source is always a good idea.

My birds eat gloop made from scratch by me but I doubt you can get the ingredients in Chewy - I get them from my local supermarket and Amazon.com. I've been keeping parrots since 1992 and, in 1994, my first rescue was diagnosed with high uric acid so I started doing research on their natural diets since then and found that gloop is, pretty much, the perfect staple food for them. It conforms to the macronutrients levels of their natural diet, it's easy to make (once you get the knack of it), inexpensive compared to all the commercial diets out there and, best of all, they LOVE it! You can look up different gloop recipes in this same section but, basically, it's a mixture of cooked whole grains and a bit of seeds (flax and sesame) with frozen veggies (because frozen is more nutritious than fresh and canned). I make a big batch of grains, freeze half and prepare the other half with the frozen veggies (you do not thaw them) - then I split it into baggies that hold daily portions and freeze them. Every night, I take out one baggie and serve it the next morning after I nuke it so it's room temperature. This and raw produce (which they need to consume because they need the phytonutrients in them -things like enzymes, antioxidants, etc) makes their breakfast. The plets will adore the gloop and if you add a different kind of leafy green each day of the week, they will have a perfect diet (they are not big into fruit but they do love their veggies and leafy greens). Be careful which green you give them - no spinach (too high in iron), no parsley, collard/mustard/beet greens (too high in oxalic acid) but you can give them everything else: romaine/butter/boston lettuce, red/rainbow/regular Swiss Chard, all kinds of cabbages -including nappa, chicory, escarole, bok choy, celery (not too often because it's high in salt and low in nutrition), radicchio, etc.

Now, I like to give them their high protein for dinner (seeds/nuts) for two reasons: 1) is that the body takes longer to process protein so, in the winter, when the nights are so long, they feel 'full' longer - and 2) is that the healthiest food is best served early in the am because that is when they are hungriest (you know, no better sauce than hunger!).

And poor Danny, Bonnie and Clyde (love the names!), five years of breathing secondary smoke practically all the time! Sheesh, their lungs are most definitely compromised... personally, I would ask my vet to do an Xray/ultrasound of Danny's lungs because I like to know exactly what I am dealing with in terms of physical problems. I know a guy who took in a macaw from a smoker and he puts the bird in an oxygen box at night to help his lungs/air sacs. I know it sounds like a huge project but it's not - it's just a glass or plastic box with a perch inside and a tube coming in from an oxygen machine. Birds need more oxygenation that mammals (that's why they have the lungs plus the air sacs plus 'pneumatized' bones)...