new feeding schedule! any thoughts?

[kaylayuh]

kaylayuh i agree with you to about just leaving food out all day for them to pick at if its not making them gain a bunch of weight. i completely agree with everything you said actually lol seems like our birds have similar personalities

My birds would literally never eat if I didn't leave a mix of foods in their cage all day. Right now, their mix is 2 part seeds to 1 part pellets. I also add in uncooked oatmeal, uncooked rice, uncooked legumes, dried fruits, dried vegetables, and popped millet cereal.

The budgies eat for about a minute when they wake up in the morning. Once I open up their cage, they're off and flying about for a good twenty minutes. They come back, play with their toys, and eat for probably a minute or two around 10am. The GCC doesn't eat first thing in the morning because he prefers to cuddle. If I didn't literally hand him Cheerios or some other foods, I'd think he never eats because I never see him at the food dish.

Honestly, I think regulating a diet like that is unnatural. When in nature does someone just hand the bird a dish of food and say have at it? It's what people do to make owning their bird fit in with their lives, and if that works for you, great. But I'd say it'd be more natural to have the bird forage for their food around their cage.

As long as the bird is healthy, I really don't see the big deal. You're not feeding the bird pizza crust and cheetos every day, so no harm, no foul.

[Michael]

By the way, I realize that not everyone wants to or has to do formal trick training. However, all owners (intentionally or not) train their parrot in at least some ways. Even if you don't care about tricks, I think it is important that all companion parrots be hand tame, can step up, and flight recall trained (if flighted). These are some very basic things but can be life issues if there are ever problems. And of course if you cannot hold, pet, or touch your bird, both you and the bird would miss out on social interaction.

If someone wants to teach tricks, they will realize the importance of some sort of food management even if it is minimal (could be as simple as training before bird has a chance to eat). However, I think the food management that is good for training is also good for behavior in general. If the bird is in a state in which it is ready to learn tricks, then it can also learn what it can or should do (I didn't say cannot because they don't seem too good at picking that up and it works differently).

I will occasionally return my parrots to free-feed to calibrate the portions. Also I will increase the intake or free-feed during heavy molt or injury. And I let them free feed when I am away for any length of time. However, during periods of time when I want to be interacting with the birds, a little hunger goes a LONG way with behavior. And it's not just like they are nice to me because they expect treats for it. They are just more easy going. Whereas if they are fully fed, they have this "I don't care about anything, I do what I want" attitude. This is not good when they are flighted and getting into places.

One more reason I remembered why managed feeding is better. Since I mainly take my parrots out just in the morning and evening prior to feeding, going back to the cage always happens without protest. In fact they WANT to go into their cages because there is a meal waiting for them. People who over feed their parrots are far more likely to have issues with biting or fleeing when it is time to return their parrot to the cage. There are just so many reasons why this kind of schedule solves behavioral problems and I can't think of all of them at the moment, but it's definitely a more manageable way to live with a parrot.

Oh and BTW, my method doesn't require them to eat all their food at once (although mine usually do). Since the amount is predetermined, they can eat it immediately or later but they cannot over eat. The way to find out how much is the right amount is tricky but eventually you get a good feel for it and it's no trouble. Trick training is a good indicator if the last meal was too much, too little, or just right. Trick training makes parrot ownership not only fun, but easier.

[patdbunny]

they just become too unmanageable. Then it's like they have too much energy but no purpose.

I'm really curious as to what you mean by this. Could you please provide some details? I've always free fed my birds even before I was breeding and only keeping pet parrots. I had never correlated excess energy with being free fed. For me it seemed if the parrots did not get enough out of cage time, they became overly energetic, not necessarily unmanageable, but borderline neurotic. I've never trick trained or cared to trick train. By "out of cage time" I don't mean constant direct human interaction while out of the cage; for me, merely having the cage open so they could freely go in and out if only to the top of their cage seemed to satisfy them.

It also seemed to me like it didn't matter how huge the cage was as for a while I had my grey in a 6' aviary, conure in a macaw size cage. It seemed to me very mental for them to have the option of being able to leave the cage if desired. Most of the time with the cage doors open they were happy to sit in the cage most of the time.

Edit to add:

going back to the cage always happens without protest. In fact they WANT to go into their cages because there is a meal waiting for them. People who over feed their parrots are far more likely to have issues with biting or fleeing when it is time to return their parrot to the cage. There are just so many reasons why this kind of schedule solves behavioral problems

Sorry, can't agree with you. I didn't have these problems free feeding. I had these problems if the birds weren't getting out enough/not getting enough interaction.

[Michael]

Kili is more likely to fly around and buzz people or bite if she is stuffed. If she's even remotely hungry she'll see if doing the right things (like step up, recall, etc) might lead to a treat or something nice. But if she's completely stuffed, she is more likely to bite/nip even if I try to get her to step up let alone someone else (and I'm not saying that she will, just saying it is more likely). Kili is more likely to chase Truman if she's not hungry.

I think the birds enjoy things like toys and attention more when hungry as well (and always keep in mind by hungry I'm talking like you and I feel when it's 5 minutes before dinner, not like not having eaten in a week). I think ultimately toys and attention are secondary reinforcers to food for mature birds. Baby birds seem to like that stuff regardless because they feel the need to explore. Kili is more likely to enjoy playing with a toy when she's hungry. Even though it's not eating, it simulates the process that might be required to forage. So this all comes together. Same thing for attention because sometimes attention leads to food. So even though she may not be directly expecting food as the result of attention, attention is positively correlated with receiving food and is thus more sought during hunger.

Kili is good about staying on the "bird designated areas" but Truman thinks he can go anywhere. When Truman is hungry, he's more likely to stay in the bird areas in the offshot chance it leads to a treat. Flying into the places he's not supposed to be never yields treats, toys, or attention so when he's hungry he doesn't go there as much. If I were to take him out of his cage after eating he'd go to all of those places. Further yet he may not fly down to me or fly away from me to avoid being removed from wherever he wants to go. So a normal amount of hunger keeps them goal oriented and manageable whereas over feeding leads to aggression and behavioral problems.

BTW I am not at all suggesting any sort of starvation. Excessive hunger is definitely proven to lead to aggression and competition for resources. But it seems that when they are too full and there are still resources left over, they get competitive again from nothing to do. But a hungry bird is a busy bird because it has the urge to forage or do the things that will satisfy its hunger. Foraging opportunities in the cage (or out) are natural substitutes to training and will keep the bird busy and satisfied. But free access to food in a bowl all the time gives it wayyyy too much free time on its beak.

[patdbunny]

So a normal amount of hunger keeps them goal oriented and manageable whereas over feeding leads to aggression and behavioral problems.

Perhaps you have not allowed them to learn that aggression and other unwanted behaviors are not allowed - period? Hungry or full, aggression is not an acceptable behavior. Hungry or full, the bird is not allowed to go to certain prohibited areas. Perhaps your birds don't correlate hunger or no hunger with the undesired behavior. There is no correlation to them that being hungry means they shouldn't be aggressive.

Free feeding does not lead to aggression and behavior problems. They don't seem to have learned that aggression and behavior problems are unacceptable. You are using food as a management tool. You are not teaching them not to stop the undesirable behaviors.

Kili has not been taught that buzzing and biting people are not allowed behaviors. I understand from a purely positive training approach you cannot teach her that these behaviors are not allowed so you can only manage the behavior to minimize its manifestations.

[Michael]

How do you punish your birds?

[kaylayuh]

But free access to food in a bowl all the time gives it wayyyy too much free time on its beak.

My birds play and do normal bird things just fine without the incentive of food. I don't think it's necessarily bad to have designated meal times, but it's just not my thing. I'm sure in some cases it works, and in others, it doesn't.

I had a hell of a time getting my budgies to eat after I first got them. They went three or four days without eating when I brought them home. I had to try all types of food and dishes in order to get them to eat. For them, designated meal times wouldn't work. I've tried it as a means to get them hand tame and it only resulted in them losing weight and becoming ill.

My GCC also isn't on a managed food schedule and is more than welcome to eat what he likes when he feels so inclined. He's been a stable weight and has few behavioral problems. The problems that he does have are a mixture of hormones and being in a new home. And while I've tried food management, he doesn't respond to it.

All three of my birds play and forage and do all kinds of things far more than they eat. They spend about 1/8th of their waking day eating and the remainder playing or flying around. I'd also agree with patdbunny.. my birds have never been listless or agressive if they've been full. But they have been listless and agressive if they've spent more time in their cage than usual.

I think it's kind of silly to say that the only way to have a meaningful and successful relationship with your parrot is to food manage and trick train. I may be reading a bit too much into what you're saying, so forgive me if I am. However, my birds are I are completely happy without trick training, flight recalling, or being on a set food schedule.

[Michael]

How do you punish your birds?

Oh yeah, you clip them, nvmd!

[kaylayuh]

How do you punish your birds?

This wasn't asked of me, but patdbunny and I seem to have similar bird ownership styles, so I'll chime in anyway.

If Cheney Bird were to buzz over me or bite me, he goes back to his cage and gets a time out. Similarly to what I'd do with a bad child, he realizes that bad behavior equals no fun time. If he wants attention, then he has to behave to get it.

When I first got Cheney Bird, biting was a real issue. He wasn't used to not having to share attention with a bunch of other birds. He would bite pretty often if he wanted me to pet him and I was doing something else. It pretty quickly stopped when he realized that biting didn't get him attention, but put in his cage with the door shut. And as the cage door is very rarely shut, he knew that he was in trouble and the biting needed to stop.

I should also say, Cheney Bird is currently clipped, but not because I wanted him that way. He will be unclipped from this point forward. I also use the same approach with the budgies and they're both fully flighted.

[patdbunny]

How do you punish your birds?

The hairs on the back of my neck are oddly bristling as though this might be a bait question. . .

I've posted before how I "punish" my birds. Generally the same ways I was punishing my child when raising her. Removing her from situations, timeouts, blocking from unwanted behaviors, grabbing her hands from touching inappropriate things and telling her "no". Again, for me it's about conveying intent and not to scare. Fear doesn't teach anything.