new feeding schedule! any thoughts?

[patdbunny]

Oh yeah, you clip them, nvmd!

Not really understanding how this is a punishment in their minds. . . would they even make that correlation?

Yes, I am one of the many sinners that clips their pet birds.

[kaylayuh]

Generally the same ways I was punishing my child when raising her.

I think this is a perfect way to describe it! I got a parrot, but what I really signed up for was raising a toddler for the next 20 to 30 years. I don't have children, but I've babysat enough unruly toddlers and adolescents (sometimes 5 at a time! ) enough to realize that the same methods work for both a misbehaving 3 year old and a misbehaving bird.

[Michael]

Not really understanding how this is a punishment in their minds. . . would they even make that correlation?

The lack of wings to fly with punishes flight attempts by inflicting pain from crashes, but this is besides the point. I wasn't inferring that you clip your birds to punish them. It just explained to me how you could get away with your approach.

If Cheney Bird were to buzz over me or bite me, he goes back to his cage and gets a time out. Similarly to what I'd do with a bad child, he realizes that bad behavior equals no fun time. If he wants attention, then he has to behave to get it.

I should also say, Cheney Bird is currently clipped, but not because I wanted him that way. He will be unclipped from this point forward. I also use the same approach with the budgies and they're both fully flighted.

But you see, you think you can get away with this now because your bird isn't flighted. So you can shove it in its cage as punishment and there is nothing it can do about it. Even if it tries to bite, hey it's merely a GCC. Obviously you wouldn't be doing this to a huge macaw. But when that bird becomes flighted you won't be able to get away with that. You won't be punishing biting or going into inappropriate places. You will be punishing the behavior of "letting human grab me" because "allowing myself to get grabbed" (or step up, whichever you do) leads to something bad (being in cage). The fact that being in the cage punishes the bird (if it in fact does), then you must be cruel for keeping the bird there most of the time. Any time the bird is cage must be punishment right?

Like I've been trying to explain from the very start the value of food management is that being in the cage is rewarding to my parrots. They want to be in their cages. They fly to me when I call them with full intent of going into their cages. They are not flying away from me or biting because I need to put them away. But if you think that the cage is bad enough of a place that being put in there for doing something bad is punishment, then being put in there under all normal circumstances is punishment too. Or you are just anthropomorphizing and the cage isn't really the punishment you think it is. I'd guess it's somewhere in between.

And your experience with putting budgies away I think doesn't speak for larger parrots. My experience with a budgie showed me how it is unlike the bigger/smarter species in that they are forgiving and don't hold grudges easily for bad stuff. My Senegal Parrot is something in between. My Cape Parrot gets VERY upset and holds a huge grudge for something he doesn't like being done to him. For one bad incident, it can easily take a week to try to undo the damage that punishment does.

I think people who clip are really naive about punishment because the bird is helpless and is submitted to the owners will. If the bird develops biting issues, the owners fail to correlate it to the fact that they overuse punishment and just try to use more punishment because they think the bird is trying to be dominant or something. Only when you have a free willed bird that can choose to come to you or not come to you do you realize that the only way you can make it choose to do what you want is by offering it "good stuff" in return. 90% of the good stuff you can offer it is food or secondary derivatives that would have lead to food.

Here are two articles I wrote about why punishment should be avoided with parrots. This is particularly relevant to flighted parrots. But psychologically it is 100% relevant to clipped ones as well. It's just that the owners don't realize what they are doing wrong cause the bird is helpless to express it.

http://theparrotforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=285
http://trainedparrot.com/index.php?bid= ... th+Parrots

Now I understand why people are saying so much against food management or not realizing why it is useful. Your parents don't fly around and land in places they shouldn't go or buzz people/birds. We're talking about two very different animals. I am talking about parrots.

[Michael]

Generally the same ways I was punishing my child when raising her.

I think this is a perfect way to describe it! I got a parrot, but what I really signed up for was raising a toddler for the next 20 to 30 years. I don't have children, but I've babysat enough unruly toddlers and adolescents (sometimes 5 at a time! ) enough to realize that the same methods work for both a misbehaving 3 year old and a misbehaving bird.

A toddler can't fly away let alone get away from you when you decide to hit it, sit it in a corner, or whatever. This argument is completely irrelevant to birds.

[kaylayuh]

A toddler can't fly away let alone get away from you when you decide to hit it, sit it in a corner, or whatever. This argument is completely irrelevant to birds.

In the same way I wouldn't hit a child, I wouldn't hit a bird. A child also doesn't think their bedroom is an evil place when being sent there for a time out. My birds, whose cages are their bedrooms, don't think their cages are a bad place because they're being put there for a time out.

My GCC and I have a very specific set of steps that I take before he's put in "time out." He's also soft clipped, so he can fly a good five to ten feet before needing to land. He knows that if he does something unacceptable and I say "no" in a firm voice, that behavior needs to stop. If that behavior continues, I'll say "no" a bit more sternly as a means to make my intent perfectly clear. If he for some reason doesn't stop on the second "no", he gets placed in his cage for 15 to 20 minutes. Once I take him back out, if the offending behavior is repeated, he goes back to the cage for a longer time out.

He's more than capable of flying away from me and has on occasion when he's known that his behavior was bad enough to warrant being put in his cage for a time out. If he does that, I calmly walk to him, tell him to step up, and place him in the area I want him. He's also more than capable of breaking out of his cage, and if that happens when he's being placed in time out, I use the little toy hangers to ensure the door is shut and he can't play jailbreak.

He doesn't associate the cage as punishment, but associates the fact that he wants attention and he's not getting it as the punishment. Most of the offending behavior is nipping when I need to pay attention to something else and he's unhappy. He's learned by this point that if I say no once, there's a good chance if he keeps escalating his behavior, he'll end up away from me. Since he doesn't want that, he's associated "no" with a lack of attention and adheres pretty quickly.

I would do the exact same thing with a misbehaving toddler. And while a toddler can't fly away from you, they certainly can be quick little buggers and run away from you. I've been around enough children to know that if they don't want to do something or accept a punishment for some bad behavior, they're more than willing to run away from you to avoid it. If I needed to redirect a child's behavior, I'd follow the exact same steps. First a calm "no", second a stern "no", third a time out.

Once the bird's time out is over, he's brought back out of the cage for cuddles and attention. He's still more than willing to hang out in his cage and often will go back to his cage on his own. All three of them have the same routine, and all three of them are perfectly fine to be in their cages to hang out. But all three know what behaviors and areas of my apartment are unacceptable for them to be in.

I should also say that the GCC will willingly come to me afterwards. He doesn't hold a grudge and likes to be with me, punishment or not. But he knows what behaviors will end his cuddle and play time and doesn't often do them.

Also, I'd use the exact same method with a Macaw or a Cockatoo that I do with my current birds.

[Michael]

Basically I can tell this issue has come down to two sides. One says that the ideal way to train parrots (once again, not restricted to just tricks but all behavior) is by punishing them while the other says by rewarding them on the basis of food deprivation (minor, but reduced from maximum desired amount).

Here is why the food management method is better. When the owner withholds food from the parrot, the parrot does not associate this badly to the owner. If the owner puts 8 pellets in the bowl instead of the desired 10, the bird is still happy to eat 8 pellets. Then the owner let's the bird work for the remaining 2 and the bird develops a positive association from being around the owner and doing what the owner wants.

In the case of free feeding and then using punishment to modify behavior, the bird associates the owner with the punishment. The bird is not grateful to the owner for being free fed because it is accustomed to seeing unlimited food in its cage daily. It is not able to correlate which behavior leads to receiving food because it receives it regardless. However, it learns to be scared of or avoid the owner because the owner punishes it. It may learn to prefer other people because other people, unlike the owner, do not punish the bird.

By using unrealized food deprivation and then controlled distribution of it, the owner gets good credit from the parrot. By punishing the parrot, the owner gets bad credit. With every occurrence of positive reinforcement from owner to bird, not only is the behavior reinforced but so is the presences and interaction between bird and human. However, when humans or namely the owner is the source of punishment, the bird will try to avoid the root of punishment and that is being around the human rather than not committing the undesired behavior.

[kaylayuh]

I can tell you right now that my bird doesn't fear me or associate me with punishments. He's perfectly happy to be with me and knows that his basic needs will always be met, regardless of whether I may be upset with his behavior or not. To me, it sounds like your birds work for their food because they don't know or aren't sure when they're next meal will come from. I'm sure that's not true, but we all can jump to conclusions here.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree. There's merits to both sides here and people will always do one or the other. I happen to like my way because it works for me and has reinforced a positive bond between my birds and I. You prefer yours because it's reinforced a positive bond between you all.

I will continue to do what works for my birds and I, and I'm sure you'll do the same. I'll do exactly this with any future birds, and if it doesn't work with another bird, I'll re-evaluate my methods then. I find your method to reinforce an unhealthy relationship with food and solidify the opinion that birds are solely for having them do tricks and entertain us, but that's just my personal opinion and not something I feel comfortable doing.

If it works for you, your bird is healthy, happy, and everyone is well adjusted, do what feels right. This just feels right to me.

[GlassOnion]

I got distracted after about half of this.. but I can say that I'm happy my birds are fairly passive.
I do have to say that a tiny bit of hunger works well when training. Also, when my birds start flying around in order to avoid my hands or whatever, I'll let them fly and fly until they get exhausted and land somewhere. Then I go touch them with praise and millet.

[coral]

vikki puts her huge macaws in cages for biting so actually you can do that to a huge macaw... birds shouldnt want to interact with the owner for food but for the interaction itself food is a given cuddling and playing are what it should look to you for imo. Roz and Capt and Vikki and a few others on this form really seem to know what their doing with parrots theyve had far for experience than you have and clipping is not punishment they are still birds even if they cannot fly, roz breeds and her aviaries are outside if she opens the doors they might fly away or maybe she clips her indoor birds because she has other pets and doesnt want it all over the house for their own safety. michael you dont know everything im sorry. it seems to me that your birds only want to interact with you for food because they are always hungry. i have not once associated marty's bad behavior with hunger. he acts certain ways for certain reasons as all birds do but his reasons are being a re-homed bird he was aggressive for neglect and had a strong fear for adult women, he was afraid of a new environment, he was upset or scared, and he did not want to go back in his cage. i have taught him to not fear people in fact he lets almost anyone pet him (a few women excluded), he has learned that if he doesnt bite i wont leave the room and if he screams i ignore him but he rarely screams for attention anymore, he has learned to love his new home and the new adventures he gets to go on. when he used to bite i would leave to room until he calmed down and everything would be fine again. my method is similar to roz and kaylayuh's but not the same but has the same effect. he will never associate me with fear. your birds only seem to want to interact with you because you offer food and they are hungry. do you ever just let them eat and cuddle with you? i trained marty without hunger and treats. marty forages for his treats. i really disagree with your methods michael and you seem to love to argue i dont have a very good impression of you.

[GlassOnion]

I can see this from both sides. I think cuddling/verbal praise works instead of a treat sometimes when training. But a little appetite for treats does go a long way when training. For the most part, Apple and I interact on just love and cuddling.. but I feel like I'm missing something as he will only recall once he knows I have treats.