new feeding schedule! any thoughts?

[patdbunny]

Actually, my particular reasons for clipping my pets is not the other household pets. It's because the other human members are not on board with the flighted idea. If you live with other household members, everyone has to be on board with the safety and management of the flighted birds. Everyone has to put the toilet seat down. Everyone has to do a birdie location check before opening any doors. Everyone has to be consistent about the safety procedures - ALL THE TIME.

I discussed the human factor with a family a few years back that bought a bird from me. They wanted it flighted. That's fine so long as they can all understand that they all must follow safety protocols - always. They had the bird in a detached rec room. We discussed that before opening the door to the rec room they need to knock, get an acknowledgment from the person inside that the bird's secured, then they can open the door and go in. About a year went by they were doing just fine. Then I get the report that the bird was so tame and it never made to fly out the door, so they quit securing it before going in and out. Yeah - the bird flew out one day, never to be seen again.

If I were a single person with no other people to factor into the equation, I would have my birds flighted. The human factor, to me, is the most dangerous.

[Mona]

Hi Michael:

Quickly, you wrote about Kili:

"Kili is more likely to fly around and buzz people or bite if she is stuffed. If she's even remotely hungry she'll see if doing the right things (like step up, recall, etc) might lead to a treat or something nice. But if she's completely stuffed, she is more likely to bite/nip even if I try to get her to step up let alone someone else (and I'm not saying that she will, just saying it is more likely). Kili is more likely to chase Truman if she's not hungry."

Honestly, I have the opposite problem with Babylon. I have real aggression problems with Babylon when she is hungry. On weekends, Doug and I tend to sleep in so the birds are fed two hours later than normal...and when I go to feed, Babylon's behavior is as you described Kili's above. As you know, Babylon is fully flighted so I am always managing to either decrease or eliminate aggression.....so, the only food management I use with her is "favorite treats". In other words, she is not fed nuts in her cage...only as reinforcement...but she IS free fed pellets, sprouts, apples, carrots, broccoli, oranges, peppers, etc.

I do free feed all of my birds, mostly because I don't want that much intensity when they are out. I do want them to be able to entertain themselves and I do want them to be able to co-exist as a flock without aggression. I am still able to train and I am still able to manage them quite well....but with a little less aggression.

Having said that, I understand food management if I am training behaviors that are not innately natural behaviors (like prop tricks). Phinney always works better if she is a little hungry....but food management seems to make no difference whatsoever with Kiri (CAG) or Babylon (senegal).

I think bottomline is that it's going to depend on the bird. Some birds work better with food management than others. Some work (and more importantl BEHAVE) better if they are free fed.

With anything we do there is Ying and Yang. It depends on what you want in your household. At this point in time, I am not focused on controlling behaviors as much as I am focused on giving my birds free time and decreasing aggression. I want them to interact naturally and I really, really do NOT want them focused intently on me for the most part. (If anything, I have more of a problem in that they are TOO intense rather than not intense enough) I don't want them hungry. I really want them to be more interested in foraging, flying and playing with their toys. I also want them to interact together as a flock without aggression and to do that, I want to decrease any competitiveness between them for what they may perceive as a "scarce resource". Hunger can increase competitive aggression.

The advantage of free feeding is that they do pick and choose what they want to eat throughout the afternoon. Often, they do not eat everything in their bowls but their diet is varied. If you read Eb Cravens, he suggests that parrots cravings are seasonal and they will choose to eat what supplements their dietary needs in that particular season. We don't always know or understand how that works for the parrots. Let them decide. For example: I want them to eat Broccoli. It goes in their dishes but they often throw it out. Last night, at 6:00 PM, I saw Jack quietly and contentedly picking the blossoms off of a piece of broccoli that I put in his cage at 6:00 AM. If I had removed it, he would not have eaten it.

I will also say, having parrots for about 20 years now, I am aways learning about and reconsidering diet. My first cockatiel died because his kidneys shut down. I am pretty sure that his pellets were oversupplemented because my vet told me this was common. Cockatiels didn't evolve to eat nutrient dense meals...they evolved to eat grass seeds. I do feed pellets to the African birds and they seem fine with it but I don't trust it as 100% of the diet. I do sprout my own sprouts and feed and it is definitely a favorite with all of my birds and I do credit it with their good feather quality and hopefully, over all health.

Anyway, gotta go. I have to admit that I've been free feeding for all of my parrots' lives and have found it to be the easiest and most comfortable fit in my household with five flighted parrots....They do get caged when I'm not home though because they are Gremlins...but that Gremlin aspect is something that I also enjoy immensely.

Thanks for the discussion.

Mona

[Manziboy]

I have Manzi and Maui on a feeding schedule that has helped immensely. I weigh both of them every day and have noticed that when I converted them to a feeding schedule, they actually gained weight. I also began flying them so the weight probably went into the developing of flight muscles. Their feeding schedule is as follows: Small pellet meal in the morning. Training in the afternoon followed by dinner which is usually some of my dinner plus fresh, cooked produce.

A few points:
In the wild, the birds do not have free access to feed all day. They must forage for feed and will fill up when they find a nice fruit tree or scavenging area. I feel that this is what training does for them. They birds have a purpose and will work for treats. They will also get meals, like they do in the wild when they do something right; in the wild this something right is find the right spot/tree/ground area, while in our households this is going through trick training.

I really like Michael's point about the positive reinforcement. A friend of mine had a parakeet that never liked him. He finally began offering him food only in his hand and not in his dish. Within a week the parakeet would not only sit contently on his hand to eat, but even at other times the bird would often fly to him and just hang out with him as the bird had associated the owner with something very positive. It really changed their relationship and both parties were much more at ease.

Manzi has been known to be a terror. Fully flighted he gets into trouble pretty frequently. When I would punish him by locking him in his cage, I saw little to no improvement. What really helps with him is letting him fly outside for an hour or so every day. Then he is much happier and calm while indoors.

Feed management does help with trick training. Today I had guests over. I had already given Manzi his dinner. I wanted to show them some of Manzi's tricks. He did them, but wouldn't take the treat I offered. This works sometimes if he is in an entertaining mood, but it doesn't work when teaching him a new trick. He wants to see a reward and works really well for this. He always has refusals left over from his evening meals, so it is not like he needs to gain weight or is consistently hungry.

I definitely feel that clipping a parrot is a means to avoid behavioral problems, not to solve them. Personally I think it is an awful solution. I admit that I've clipped Manzi before, but the change it does to his personality is not nice for me to witness. He is more humble, but he doesn't have the joy he gets out of flying. It is extremely sad and I got incredibly emotional the last time I clipped him. I was moving across the country and was worried that if I got in a car accident and the travel cage broke open he would get out and get lost. Or while at a midway point, he could crash into someone's window and break his neck, etc. Now that I am at the new place, I immediately show him the windows and he does just fine.
To me, clipping a bird to solve a behavioral problem is like maiming/hobbling a child to keep him from getting into trouble (I know many people do not like this comparison, but this is how I see it in my mind). Ceiling fans are not arguable. It is easy to get a fan that has protection, like a regular floor fan, and use that instead of a ceiling fan. Fireplaces can have covers. Kitchen cooking has never been an issue. I never lock Manzi up while cooking. Instead I put a chair nearby and let him sit and watch me. He has never had the urge to fly into a pot of boiling water. Plus, it is easy enough to keep boiling dinners covered with a lid.
A few years ago I was extremely frustrated with Manzi's behavior. I remember I asked my neighbor (a bird behaviorist) about clipping to solve the behavioral problem. He had the same response as Michael in that it will do nothing to solve the problem. Instead it will just knock the poor bird down a few notches when by dedication my bird can stay happily flighted, and have a healthy relationship with me.

The health issue: I feel that by regulating their diets, my birds are in top notch health. I know exactly what they are eating on a daily basis. I know their weights, they get lots of exercise and are very happy. I imagine that if I keep this up with Manzi, he will live a very long healthy life.

Lastly, I have heard over and over again comments such as "my bird is so picky and will never eat..." or "my bird won't eat meals." I think all birds will eat meals and will also eat much more food than their owners think. Maui came to me like that. She would only eat seed and never anything else. It turns out that she eats anything and everything I give her. She easily transferred over to pellets. I am watching an indian ringneck parrot for the week. The owners said the same thing of her, Gator. She's a darling little thing. She had a food dish nearly as big as Manzi's and halfway full of seeds. I took that out and gave her a meal of seeds. She ate it throughout the day and in the evening ate some of my dinner. Within a few days she ate out of my hand. I'm sure she's getting enough food as she never finishes her evening meal. She was so stressed when first coming to my place, but with food management I showed her that strangers can be a great thing and she calmed right down (her owner thinks this bird doesn't like women at all and says the bird only likes her husband. The owner is in for a surprise). It is easy to get a bird to eat a meal and I really doubt the argument that a bird would rather starve than eat something it doesn't want. Who would be cruel enough to really do that experiment in the first place? Second, just because your bird is stubborn, doesn't mean it is ready to starve. It just means it has had plenty of time to build up the knowledge that it will get its way sooner or later.

By the way, I do realize that everyone has different points of view. We need to make sure this discussion is not a personal attack on people as we are all trying to do our best for our birds. We all obviously love our birds. I feel that I love Manzi way too much not to let him fly. Other people tell me they love their birds too much to let them fly. It is all a matter of opinion. It seems the best option is to make the information available, and then let everyone have access to it so they can use it to their benefit. I appreciate the different points of view and thank you for sharing.

[patdbunny]

Adele,

Thanks for sharing your views. I agree there are solutions to each hazard I listed for flight. Unfortunately, my experience with the dead babies has been inexperienced people aren't even thinking of those things as hazards. Very sad.

[Manziboy]

Roz, I definitely agree. Before, I thought every bird should be flighted, but then I saw that there are owners who for what ever reason are not able to keep their flighted birds safe. As much as I dislike clipping, in those situations it may be best. While I might think that those owners probably shouldn't have birds, that doesn't change the fact that they do have birds. Thus, it doesn't matter whether or not they deserve birds and at that point, you have to think about what is best for the birds that are going to be in that situation. It turns out that the answer to that is often to have them clip the birds.

[CheekyandMalolo]

I think it is important that all companion parrots be hand tame, can step up, and flight recall trained (if flighted).And of course if you cannot hold, pet, or touch your bird, both you and the bird would miss out on social interaction.

I disagree, we have a Red Wing Parrot who isn't hand tame. We've held him twice in 8 years, both times were when he got himself stuck somewhere and had to be rescued. He's very comfortable with us now, but will still move away when you get that little bit too close. And will only take selected foods from us (like bits of muffin and certain flowers). He's a good boy, who will go into his cage when told to so there's no issues there, and he really just enjoys taking a flower off to the window sill and looking outside, tho don't ask me how such a big bird perches himself on the window sill!

I also don't think you need to be able to physically interact with a bird to enjoy social interaction. Our Princess Parrot is hand reared, but as he spends most of his time with the Red Wing he's very independent, however he loves to come and have a chat during the day, or come and beg for bits of your dinner! They definitely aren't cuddle bugs, and Prince isn't very reliable at being picked up, but I couldn't imagine our house without them. They're the most gentle things ever.

[Grey_Moon]

MIchael, you *really* have to stop pushing your views.

Personally, I would not be ok with knowing that the only reason my parrots interacted with me or behaved would be because they were in whatever capacity hungry.

Both mine are flighted, and they know that there are places/things that they cannot do. For example, my hen timneh is not allowed on the floor---because she usually gets broody, territorial and aggressive. Whenever she would go there I would shoo her out of whatever dark hiding place she got into and pick her up and place her back on her playstand, when she stayed there I gave her attention and etc. Eventually she got the message. She still flies off the playstand occaisionally but knows that trying to go to the floor is useless so she flies to other places.

In the same way, when I say UP or In Your House...they know they have to. I will eventually get them to do it....buut to avoid the learned helplessness issue I always tempt them in with a treat and reward them for going into their cages or stepping up regardless. The thing is...yes sometimes clipping is a way to avoid attitude issues, but in some cases I think it is what is best.

For example, if one had a bird that was extremely aggressive and flew to attack people. This bird and its family are in danger of creating negative habits and bad patterns. I would rather see this bird clipped and worked with and a repair of this relationship---than to preserve flight. It is extremely difficult to work with or discipline a bird who is flying at your face. End result is lots of tension and bird being locked up more. Maybe after the issue is resolved he could be allowed to fly again. As well, if lifestyle changes dictate that a bird would be better off clipped---then so be it. Things happen. Is it crueler to disallow flight or to have to send that bird away from all its ever known just because its 'cruel' in your opinion not to allow it to fly?

[Michael]

Sounds like you didn't actually read what I wrote or you would have seen the relevance to your situation.

[coral]

sounds pretty relevant to me.

MIchael, you *really* have to stop pushing your views.

Personally, I would not be ok with knowing that the only reason my parrots interacted with me or behaved would be because they were in whatever capacity hungry.

Both mine are flighted, and they know that there are places/things that they cannot do. For example, my hen timneh is not allowed on the floor---because she usually gets broody, territorial and aggressive. Whenever she would go there I would shoo her out of whatever dark hiding place she got into and pick her up and place her back on her playstand, when she stayed there I gave her attention and etc. Eventually she got the message. She still flies off the playstand occaisionally but knows that trying to go to the floor is useless so she flies to other places.

In the same way, when I say UP or In Your House...they know they have to. I will eventually get them to do it....buut to avoid the learned helplessness issue I always tempt them in with a treat and reward them for going into their cages or stepping up regardless. The thing is...yes sometimes clipping is a way to avoid attitude issues, but in some cases I think it is what is best.

For example, if one had a bird that was extremely aggressive and flew to attack people. This bird and its family are in danger of creating negative habits and bad patterns. I would rather see this bird clipped and worked with and a repair of this relationship---than to preserve flight. It is extremely difficult to work with or discipline a bird who is flying at your face. End result is lots of tension and bird being locked up more. Maybe after the issue is resolved he could be allowed to fly again. As well, if lifestyle changes dictate that a bird would be better off clipped---then so be it. Things happen. Is it crueler to disallow flight or to have to send that bird away from all its ever known just because its 'cruel' in your opinion not to allow it to fly?

i agree with everything you just said, and especially michael pushing his views lol.

my bird has a lot of issues with women he was mistreated in his other homes and he has grown to hate women who look a certain way that remind him of this one woman, he flew at my mother and bit her ear when i first got him and now he runs after my grandmother and chases her out of the room. i had to clip his wings when i first got him because he was attacking people. im going to try to let his wings grow out but if it doesnt work because of his safety and my families well being ill have to clip his wings. he is a rehomed bird and he is an adult not a baby so its harder especially since hes my first bigger parrot. but were working on it

[Michael]

I doubt that's going to solve anything because you're not willing to take any of the measures that could solve it. Clipping curbs the expression of it rather than solving the actual problem. You refuse to accept what works for some sort of pride or I don't know what. I'm not pushing anything, I'm just telling you what works. It's not just because it works for me (although this is a reason I'm confident to share it). I didn't come up with it. I read about it from other trainers and owners. I've talked to people who've done it and watched their videos. I really have no idea why people are so opposed to some very basic food management (like 2 unlimited feedings daily). Are people really too lazy to remember to take it in and out and commit to making sure they can make it home to feed? Do people forget to come home to feed their children? I really can't understand what the fundamental opposition to food scheduling into meals is when it is natural, healthy, and solves behavioral issues.

So as I was starting to say about your scenario about flying at women that you presented. If I were trying to solve that issue, I would not clip the parrot because it wouldn't solve it. Instead I would start with implementing food management. Mild at first but stepping it up as needed (refer to what I posted to another topic for establishing food management and optimizing it). Target training and teaching a couple tricks makes the next steps easier. Next I would do flight recall training if the bird isn't already reliable at recalling on cue. No this isn't just a cutesy show trick, it has very practical application. It teaches the bird to fly to YOU. When the bird gets very very used to flying to you, it will revert to flying and landing on you in face of danger rather than attacking it or fleeing in some other manner. The routine and practice of flying to the trainer just makes it a natural thing to do in those other situations.

While the above steps are going on, I would begin having said unliked women spend time in the room where the cage is (or bring cage to them or bird in carrier to them) without any interaction at all. First keeping the caged bird far away and going about normal personal interaction and then working it so unliked people or just women in general are closer and closer to the cage going about their things. As long as the bird isn't freaking out in the cage, all this action can be brought closer and closer progressively. Once it is at the point that other people can stand right by the cage/carrier and the parrot isn't freaking out, they can begin offering treats to the parrot through the bars. If it won't take it, they can drop it in an empty bowl in the cage for a non-contact handoff. Once the parrot does take treats from strangers in cage, the strangers can target the parrot around cage for a treat. Since the parrot is in a cage, it does not have the opportunity to fly at these people while learning how only good things happen around these kinds of people (like women). Eventually steps I show in my taming guide can be taken where the owner targets the parrot onto a handheld perch, glove, or bare hand of the kinds of people it is said not to like. If over time it is taught to like them because they are the provider of all things good and nothing bad, it will have far less reason to fly and attack them.

So as you can see, you can either pretend like nothing is wrong and blame me, blame the bird, clip its wings, and essentially not solve the root of the problem which will come back when the wings do, or you can come up with a rational plan to deal with your birds insecurities and change things so the things once seen as bad can be very positive instead.

Personally, I would not be ok with knowing that the only reason my parrots interacted with me or behaved would be because they were in whatever capacity hungry.

So you're saying you'd rather the parrot interact with you because it is forced to by either clipping or punishment? When it is done for food it is not forced. They have the choice to refuse and sometimes do. Refusing doesn't mean they won't get to eat, it just means they won't get to eat right that moment and have to wait until meal time. If besides sleep, food is the thing parrots spend the most time seeking in the wild, what other things should it be "well behaved and interact with you for?"

For example, my hen timneh is not allowed on the floor---because she usually gets broody, territorial and aggressive.

And if you didn't overfeed her, there would be less broody, territorial, and aggressive behavior. Funny how no one actually reads my explanations. In the wild, parrots don't begin breeding behavior until resources are plentiful. If you can keep them in that sub-plentiful but healthy dosage for most of the time, you can reduce hormonal behavior. They cannot lay eggs without the extra nutrition needed beyond their own needs to lay and incubate the eggs. By keeping the food at a level that it's always enough for the single parrot but not enough for the other activities, you greatly dissuade them from occurring naturally. Despite explaining this countless times in my posts, people still just say they ignore what I say because they don't feel like teaching tricks. Funny that the people who could benefit most from a bit of food regulation are the ones most opposed to using it.

For example, if one had a bird that was extremely aggressive and flew to attack people. This bird and its family are in danger of creating negative habits and bad patterns. I would rather see this bird clipped and worked with and a repair of this relationship---than to preserve flight.

Clipping the parrot would NOT repair the relationship. It would merely break its wings.

Is it crueler to disallow flight or to have to send that bird away from all its ever known just because its 'cruel' in your opinion not to allow it to fly?

It is cruel to clip the wings sooner than to stop being lazy and actually work with your bird a little to solve the problems.