new feeding schedule! any thoughts?

[LyzGrace]

Irrelevant to the topic, I know...

But, Michael, I have to say that I was really excited to find this forum because of the openness, knowledgeability, information, willingness to share, and overall friendliness of the people on this forum. It's a very pleasant read compared to most.

That being said, I find it a real shame that the only people I've been completely and totally irked by are the admins. It's one thing to offer suggestions and even warn people of how they could potentially be harming their bird, but you're being aggressive and childish over issues that really are NOT that big a deal. You opened yourself and this forum up to a lot of people who will inevitably do some things differently than you do. You're not going to change their minds, so change your attitude. A little understanding goes a long way.

[coral]

Irrelevant to the topic, I know...

But, Michael, I have to say that I was really excited to find this forum because of the openness, knowledgeability, information, willingness to share, and overall friendliness of the people on this forum. It's a very pleasant read compared to most.

That being said, I find it a real shame that the only people I've been completely and totally irked by are the admins. It's one thing to offer suggestions and even warn people of how they could potentially be harming their bird, but you're being aggressive and childish over issues that really are NOT that big a deal. You opened yourself and this forum up to a lot of people who will inevitably do some things differently than you do. You're not going to change their minds, so change your attitude. A little understanding goes a long way.

not irrevelant i feel the same way, he seems to do this no matter the subject but he likes to push people and it kinda made me mad this time idc what he does honestly but i dont like pushy people and i dont like how rude he is and how he thinks his opinion is the only right one... :/

[Grey_Moon]

Michael,

First, I am not objecting to a food plan that makes the birds forage for all of their meals--I am objecting to food management because life happens---sometimes we don't come home or can't come home when we normally would, for someone with an anxious plucking grey that would be disastrous because she would pluck herself bald not being able to eat.
Secondly, just because my birds do not interact with me for food like yours are apt to do does not mean they interact with me because they'd get punishment if they didn't.
You make it sound as if all parrots do in the wild is seek food or sleep---you forget social interaction. My birds are not forced to interact with me---they do so because I'm part of their flock and they seek out attention and affection from me.
The only thing they are 'forced' to do is step-up if I need them to or to stay out of places they're not allowed. In no way shape or form are they punished or forced to receive scritches or any sort of attention from me. Any treats I give them are special things they do not get in their diet---so even though they are free-fed they are still very motivated to train.

Lastly, you are right that lack of food abundance means no breeding behaviour. However, you fail to see the rest of the story with this. The body goes into breeding mode when there are optimal nutrient levels in the body---when it can afford to spend the excess on reproduction! As well--there has to be the right triggers in addition to this optimal nourishment--so juuust because a bird is in optimal body condition to allow it to breed doesn't mean it will. The body will not go into breeding mode if it is not in optimal condition to do so---in a way I could compare this to human females who when not eating well or enough or having enough body fat will not menstruate.
So I would daresay then my Timneh is *not* being overfed. In fact, she is only given what she will eat in a day--and if I control other triggers, like dark spaces, handling etc she comes out of her broody behaviour--without sacrifing nutrition.

[Michael]

You are completely right that there are other triggers. Some of them we can control and some of them we can't. However, if food is one of the ones we can control, isn't it a good idea to use that to make up for the ones we can't? It's one of the things that can greatly reduce hormonal behavior because without the dietary excess, there can be no egg laying, etc. I'm mostly thinking of the female parrots. But in male parrots it would also mean not having the excess to afford to regurgitate trying to seek a mate. When they get into the hormonal/reproductive state it causes trouble because it cannot be fulfilled. We're not even talking about nest boxes and egg laying as much as the flirtation, nest seeking, and other aggression that is present in the earlier stages. Obviously we're not going to tolerate them finding nest boxes and stuff if it causes problems. Working with light timing and things like that can help reduce the triggers but humidity cycles and others will continue. I would guess it varies by species as well. However, excess food availability is the one make or break factor for hormonal behavior. Without food excess, the bird's body can't afford to let the other stuff occur regardless of timings and that is why I think it is one of the most successful methods of dealing with this issue.

I don't know much about dealing with plucking so I can't say how food management could effect it. I would guess I would want to try greater enrichment, foraging, and training to keep the bird busy by food managing to encourage it to keep busy by working for food more. But I don't know if that would work or not without trying it or doing further study.

No matter how many times I explain it, people still accuse me of saying that parrots are only motivated by food. My position is that food is one of the activities they spend most energy, time, and effort seeking so it is the most effective single reward to use for supporting certain behavior. Petting, toys, attention and all those other things can be effective as well in varying degrees (depending on personality and species) but never as effective as food. Since food motivated behavior occupies a very large amount of a parrots time in the wild, it is a more effective means of motivating them for "good behavior" in the home environment more of the time. I already explained that I can get Kili to recall or stick to bird areas for a little while for all the other non food reinforcements, but I couldn't keep her well behaved an entire hour strictly for those things cause she doesn't want that much of them. I can pet her for 5 minutes, maybe 15 if she's really in the mood for it. I can make her do tricks for it, fly to me, not bite, whatever. But eventually she gets tired of it and refuses any more. It is no longer reinforcing to use. The same goes for talking, attention, toys, etc. This is why managing food is useful because it can focus the bird on proper behavior (by our standards in our homes) while they are out merely for the prospect that it could lead to food.

People keep saying that all activities shouldn't be in return for food, but a lot of the reinforcement I am able to use for my parrots are conditioned reinforcers based on food. Being on my Parrot Training Perches (and other parrot designated areas but to less of an extent) is a conditioned reinforcer. My parrots never get food just for going on them but being on them may present an opportunity to do a trick which may earn them a treat. Look at that chain of reinforcement. Performing tricks (recalls, etc) is a secondary reinforcement and being on the perches is a tertiary reinforcer. There are no toys on those perches yet the parrots prefer them to their trees (part of it is cause they're higher but I suspect that's less of a reason at this point). They can earn foot toys by flying to or remaining on the Training Perches and other bird appropriate areas. The slightest bit of hunger is enough to remind them to stay on their bird areas more of the time. However, if they had just eaten, they will run wild and go all over the place. This is why in my routine they spend a lot of time in the cage after eating (I'm away at work after morning feeding, they go to sleep after evening feeding). Thus I am able to prevent most of the behavior that is remotely reinforced with food.

I have even conditioned Kili to praise as reinforcement and I have a good feeling it is working. It is conditioned to food. When I flight recall her for variable ratio food reinforcement, I still praise her every recall. Boy you should see how her eyes light up and start pinning when I praise her. She gets really excited. This was not the case early on when I had her because the words had no meaning. But since she's gotten treats so many times while hearing them, she is always happy to hear them without even realizing why. It's amazing how effective these conditioned reinforcers can be and they don't even lead to food most of the time. However, food is such a strong reinforcer that it is a more effective primary reinforcer to condition new reinforcers to (clicker, praise, training perches, tricks, etc).

[patdbunny]

Yah know when you have a cranky day and you just want to spend all day hanging out in your room, eating a pizza and not being bothered by people? Sometimes I think my birds get that way. They have a cranky day and they get put away and stay in their cage. While that's strickly "punishment" in the animal training sense, I don't think the bird thinks of it that way.

My birds are "punished" but they don't have to worry that their basic need to sustain life - eating - will not be fulfilled. I just think it sucks that your birds tie everything, including praise, to food. "OH! Thank GOD! I get to eat!" They go in their cage and they know they can't get to food if they do get hungry. And if you get stuck in traffic and are late a couple of hours getting home to feed, I wonder what their mental state is?

As Entranced brought up - Birds in the wild, while they may not be eating all day long, they have the availability of food 24/7.

[GlassOnion]

I think how you raise your birds has to do with what kind of relationship you expect out of it. If just you're looking for a companion with whom you hang out and occasionally take out on outings, a relaxed approach to parrot ownership would work fine.

If you want a clear, firm relationship with set boundaries and almost immaculate obedience, that's when training and food management and all that comes in. Look at police dogs, their lives revolve in training, food management, executing trained behaviours, etc. Look at professional animal trainers, they achieve a lot of what others can't with their animals. These said outcomes aren't a product of a relaxed, easy going relationship between the trainer and the trainee.

I think it really boils down to what you WANT out of your relationship, there is no right or wrong with either methods of lifestyle- strictly trained or more relaxed. Personally, I praise what Michael has accomplished with his parrots. Conditioning to the point at which the bird willingly flies laps after laps for several seeds, is quite commendable imo. I hope to achieve that with my birds eventually.

[patdbunny]

GlassOnion - I'm not critical of Michael's methods, his successes or the way he chooses to keep his parrot or the relationship he chooses to have with his parrots. I'm only voicing my "opinion" that that's not the relationship I care for.

I do object with his statements:

You refuse to accept what works for some sort of pride or I don't know what.

As though his proposed method is the only method that works.

Are people really too lazy to remember to take it in and out and commit to making sure they can make it home to feed? Do people forget to come home to feed their children?

Sometimes it's not about laziness - get stuck in traffic, unforseen blizzard that gets you stuck out of the house, car accident, call at work that your spouse got in a car accident, other acts of God. Children are generally not locked in a cage and can access another human to take care of them pending the parent getting to them.

And if you didn't overfeed her, there would be less broody, territorial, and aggressive behavior.

over feeding leads to aggression and behavioral problems.

I want to see the studies on the correlation here. Several people, including people with flighted birds, have said they free feed and don't have behavior problems.

I really don't criticize or have any problems with the way he chooses to keep his birds. We all are learning, continuing to learn and making the decisions for our own birds that we feel are best for our birds; and that includes Michael, which is his right to do.

Just what's up with repeatedly saying people are "lazy".

I didn't jump up and post and call him irresponsible, lazy, selfish, etc., etc., etc. for letting the two of them interact when they have hurt each other and dislike each other even though that's how I feel about it.

[Mona]

Roz wrote:

"over feeding leads to aggression and behavioral problems.

I want to see the studies on the correlation here. Several people, including people with flighted birds, have said they free feed and don't have behavior problems."

....actually, from anecdotal evidence from people who have worked with rescued birds, it isn't food abundance that leads to aggression and behaviorial problems. What causes aggression and behaviorial problems is the fluctuation between scarcity and receiving proper nutrition.

Rescue birds that have had to face scarcity, go immediately into aggressive/breeding mode when introduced into a home that gives them proper nutrition. It's a hormone trigger. Bird has been on an inadequate diet....bird moves into a good home and receives an adequate diet...birds hormones signal that NOW or never is the time to set up a nest....Behavior can become aggressive (finding and protecting mate or nest) or the bird can become overly broody (also a big problem). This is VERY COMMON in rescue situations. I can't tell you how many stories I have read about it. People don't understand why this very calm, almost listless bird all of a sudden becomes AGGRESSIVE to them...when all they are trying to do is HELP the poor bird.

If the bird is kept at a consistent optimal level of exercise and diet....behavior becomes more normal. It is absolutely possible to free feed and manage flighted birds in a home environment. You don't have to create conditions of scarcity. I know. I do it.

Having said all that, I do use restricted treats to train....in other words, the bird does not receive "treats" as a part of their diet. That does work. Conditioned reinforcers work. Social reinforcers work. Since we are working with incredibly complex organisms....and since WE are also complex....it's usually hard to isolate exactly what variables work but for discrete training...favorite treats work.

Now, if you NEED more flight control over the bird, you CAN use stricter food management and you CAN create conditions of scarcity, however; there are also risks to doing that...just like any thing.

Personally, I don't need that much control over my birds. I would rather know that they "learn" on their own...and use some common sense in different situations. I can't give them as much freedom as I would like to, but I do try to give them at least SOME structured freedom.....

One risk to using leverage to increase control IS increased aggression. The reason is that if you work with animals in a flock and they perceive a condition of SCARCITY, you can set up a competitive environment and in such an environment, animals can become aggressive. Simply put: Who gets the food? The first one to get to it and THE most protective of it. That becomes even more complicated when you have mating season and mating behaviors because: Who gets the MATE? The one who PROVES they can provide and protect.....Hunger can exasperate these innate tendencies.

IMHO, it's not necessarily productive to try to eliminate such tendencies BECAUSE they are natural tendencies. We all have hunger and sex drives ....what a trainer does is recognize the tendencies and work to modify them. How do you do that? Everybody has different techniques, some difficult to articulate but personally, I seldom use hunger.

I did use it for a brief time with Phinney to train a spot on recall; however, I also noticed that she tended to "pig out" when she was presented with food while I was changing her feeding routine. I can't see how that's healthy in the long run. Right now, I also don't need a spot on recall.....because she's easy to manage without one in the house and I'm not doing anything special with her at the moment.

One other thing...as far as modifying aggressive tendencies with a flighted bird...I would NOT train recall because then the bird is flying at you. They can land and bite....I know because been there, done that. Instead, I would train the bird to fly to a perch. I would target fly rather than recall fly...You get the same results without the opportunity for a painful bite.

Gotta go..
Thx

Mona

[Michael]

Sometimes it's not about laziness - get stuck in traffic, unforseen blizzard that gets you stuck out of the house, car accident, call at work that your spouse got in a car accident, other acts of God. Children are generally not locked in a cage and can access another human to take care of them pending the parent getting to them.

While not leaving food vs leaving food in cage can shift the circumstances by a day or two (depending how much excess is left during free feed), the same risks exist. If the owner can't make it home for a week, the bird is pretty screwed either way. Even with food management if the owner or someone else is alerted to come feed within 24-48 hours the parrot will be ok (severity of outcome will vary by species but even a budgie can go a few days without food). I'm not sure how many extra days worth of free feed people leave when free feeding but I doubt anything more than an extra 24-48 hours. The water will be going bad either way. So I think the problem is the same in either case but the timeline is the only thing that is different.

Of course I don't think anyone wants their birds to starve because they make it home late or the next day but (unless using extreme cases of food management) it would not be catastrophic. As a food manager, I am always concerned about this and have rushed to come home many times where I may have opted to stay out longer knowing that they need to be fed. I've never had a problem. And like I said, if I know I could be late a certain day, I may as well free feed them cause they won't get to come out anyway.

I want to see the studies on the correlation here. Several people, including people with flighted birds, have said they free feed and don't have behavior problems.

Those people typically have bird rooms or aviaries. They are really lucky because they can let their parrots do practically anything they like because the area is modified completely to their needs. What about people who have parrots out in the same living area?

I really don't criticize or have any problems with the way he chooses to keep his birds. We all are learning, continuing to learn and making the decisions for our own birds that we feel are best for our birds; and that includes Michael, which is his right to do.

And I respect everyone else's right to disagree. I have not attacked, insulted, or abused moderator power against anyone who spoke against me. I just feel that I'm not getting any logical arguments from the other side but generally personal attacks. I respect much more the people who took the time to outline their reasons than to just state an unsubstantiated fight against me.

Just what's up with repeatedly saying people are "lazy".

I question if it's the extra effort involved in managing food rather than filling a bowl once a day that is preventing people from doing it. I'm not necessarily saying it has to be that, but when people tell me they are against food management without explaining their reasons it makes me wonder.

I didn't jump up and post and call him irresponsible, lazy, selfish, etc., etc., etc. for letting the two of them interact when they have hurt each other and dislike each other even though that's how I feel about it.

I am still having a very tough time deciding what to do about this. It's one of my biggest concerns and things I'm split on. One one hand a bit of fighting can be expected but where to draw the line as too much is hard to decide. The biggest thing keeping me from keeping them apart is that I'm afraid it will only increase aggression between them if they ever do come in contact and that it would prevent further attempts at bringing them together. My vet pretty much agreed with me on this and did not suggest not keeping them together anymore since the puncture bite. Of course if it gets any worse I'll have no choice but I'm still hoping that by training them side by side, limiting territorial aggression, and taking them out together more they'll work it out.

It would be no harder for me to alternate them as having them together in the short term. But in the long term I'd prefer they be able to get along regardless of where I live so I believe it is important to make a best effort to avoid separating them and making it impossible for them to ever be near each other. I don't use heavy food management to prevent them from getting resource competitive. They only eat independently in their own cages or get rewarded with treats simultaneously. I totally appreciate suggestions for solving this without having to keep them apart physically.

[coral]

Actually Michael you have said some pretty rude and immature things during this discussion that I really don't think a moderator should say.. I would quote but im on my phone so yah.

I don't think filling a bowl once a day is lazy and most of us free feeders don't feed just once a day I feed 2 times a day I refill water and pellets/ dried veggies in the morning and at about 6 he gets his fresh stuff and more water then at night I change the water again.