new feeding schedule! any thoughts?

[entrancedbymyGCC]

I like what Mona had to say, and also some of Grey_Moon's points. I've said most of what I wanted to say on the poll thread and I'm not feeling like repeating it here. I will address the the idea that doing something which is less labor-intensive is "lazy". It is true that if I had more time at home to devote to it, I would increase the amount of the daily food that is accessed through forage. But the amount of time I have at home when the birds are awake and I'm not otherwise occupied is limited and I'd rather spend that time on interaction. I don't think that is "laziness".

I also don't particularly want to teach my birds to expect things on a specific schedule. I don't keep a set schedule myself and I suppose that could be labeled "undisciplined" but it can also be labeled "Flexible" and I like flexibility. If they have some sustenance available I don't have to take in to consideration that they may be going hungry if I'm hung up in the office until 10 PM. They'd miss their fresh food, but I try to keep that on a somewhat variable schedule so they don't count on it like clockwork. Perhaps I am used to horses which tend to really lock on to a schedule if you feed on one, such that variations can cause serious behavior problems and even illness.

I agree with Glass_Onion that a well trained bird that performs flawlessly is an impressive accomplishment, and I certainly think food management can contribute to producing and maintaining a strong predictable response. However, I disagree with the subtext that this is somehow better or more admirable than having a healthy, content companion bird.

And for Michael, I ask, are you sure that Kili's response to your praise is a simple knee-jerk conditioned response? Or is it just barely possible that she is responding to your praise for what it inherently is? If that were the case, what would it mean to you?

[jayebird]

There's two intertwined "discussions" going on here. Flight and food management.

- - - - - - -

I'll start with flight, but these two issues are going to intertwine...

If I had a dog right now, there are things I would not do. I would not have a doggie door to the outside world so that he could run and run and run free in the roads and yards, as one might say a dog should, whenever he so chooses. I would not take him on a walk through the city streets or on a hike without a collar and a leash. I would, however, take him to a dog park with a fence and play ball. I would allow him access to all safe rooms within the house, but not the outside with my supervision. I would train him to recall and behave around strangers, but I would also know that no matter how domesticated he is nothing is ever 100%. So too with my bird. My bird was flighted for a while and literally flew into a window. That's a hard lesson to learn (regardless of the training we had done beforehand). Your birds are flighted...and one broke its pelvis in a crash landing because you were chasing it to put it back in its cage. Hard lesson. They flew to each other and one ended up at the vet with a wound. Hard lesson.

Birds are like 2 year olds or younger - but imagine safe-proofing your house for a two year old WITH WINGS! When I was 3 years old I climbed up on a radiator and fell off and crashed into stuff - and I still have a scar, actually. I can't tell you if I learned my lesson or not at the time because I don't even remember the incident. My bird is even more fragile than I was - and I'm really not willing to risk him getting permanently disfigured.

If you're having problems with aggression that you seem to be correlating to free-feeding phases, perhaps this really applies to your birds:

Rescue birds that have had to face scarcity, go immediately into aggressive/breeding mode when introduced into a home that gives them proper nutrition. It's a hormone trigger. Bird has been on an inadequate diet....bird moves into a good home and receives an adequate diet...birds hormones signal that NOW or never is the time to set up a nest....Behavior can become aggressive (finding and protecting mate or nest) or the bird can become overly broody (also a big problem). This is VERY COMMON in rescue situations. I can't tell you how many stories I have read about it. People don't understand why this very calm, almost listless bird all of a sudden becomes AGGRESSIVE to them...when all they are trying to do is HELP the poor bird.

Also, stop saying that the bird is punished with pain for its flight attempts because you think it crashes to the ground and immediately gets hurt. A properly clipped bird simply flutters and can land safely - no pain, no punishment. I have an exposed radiator in my house and a gas stove and we forget to close the bathroom door sometimes. I love my bird and he is out with us at least 5 hours a day - no exaggeration. My bird is clipped and can flutter to the ground safely without pain. He flutters and hops quite a bit and I can gladly say that to this day no broken pelvises or chipped beaks to report.

Stop saying that a clipped bird is not a real bird. A dog on a leash, without a canine pack, not roaming free and hunting deer, is not a real dog? An indoor cat is not a cat? These are animals that live with humans and will never be 100% their wild selves. Your birds are not allowed to fly free in the trees or even around your house because there are forbidden areas - does that make them less of a bird, too? They don't have an entire safe room dedicated to them, but I'm not going to say that that makes them any less well taken care-of or makes you a bad owner.

Stop throwing around words like lazy. Stop calling clipping a physically abusive action. It doesn't hurt. Feathers are fingernails.

My bird is not actually my prisoner on my shoulder or his playstand. We've got a great relationship and we communicate. I know his body language and he knows how to tell me when he wants Playstand, Cage, David, Jaye, Coffee Table, Hand, Shoulder, Computer Monitor...and I'm not going to say no if he's tired of me and wants Playstand. I help him get there. And if he doesn't want to come out of his cage I'm also not going to make him. But I also must admit that I need the ability to put him in his cage even if he'd rather stay out and play - because I need to go to work or something - and I don't want to fight with him about it and risk, well...a chase and crash landing. Because he is not flighted he can be out of his cage 5+ hours a day because I know that, no matter what, he'll be safe and, say, if he needs to be emergency put into his carrier for a fire alarm then I can do that no matter how distracting or frightening the circumstance - which, sometimes, no amount of training will defy. I've had a long discussion with my avian vet about keeping him flighted and she and I agreed that it was not the best option for us - and that doesn't make me lazy and doesn't mean I don't deserve my bird companion.

Also, fun fact, Mango's got a pretty good recall despite being non-flighted. He'll skitter across the whole apartment on the floor to get to us if we're in the kitchen, or he'll race across the desk and over obstacles just to be on our hand. I like that he does that regardless of "potential for food."

- - - - - - - - -

Just stop the aggression and evangelizing and judgement. Listen to the user LyzGrace. I feel the same way they do.

- - - -

Feeding stuff...

Mona has said some excellent points that I agree with especially:

It is absolutely possible to free feed and manage flighted birds in a home environment. You don't have to create conditions of scarcity. I know. I do it.

Having said all that, I do use restricted treats to train....in other words, the bird does not receive "treats" as a part of their diet. That does work. Conditioned reinforcers work. Social reinforcers work. Since we are working with incredibly complex organisms....and since WE are also complex....it's usually hard to isolate exactly what variables work but for discrete training...favorite treats work.

That's what we do. He gets a healthy, rounded diet in his cage but he only gets yogurt or apples or safflower seeds (his favorite treats!) when we want to train.

Our mantra with Mango is "forage, forage, forage!!!" and we are constantly making new foraging toys for him, rotating foraging toys and methods, etc etc. He has a couple of small bowls (that move around his cage every day) that are always filled with pellets - and shreds of paper to dig and forage through - but to get his Nutriberries or fresh veggies he has to forage. Those foraging toys are rotated daily, filled every morning (and yes, that's an extra 10-15 minutes I add on to my morning routine) and sometimes a mash is served for an extra breakfast. We're anything but lazy parrot owners - what a rude thing to say to the people on this forum you administrate. We spend time, energy, money and love on our bird and he reciprocates with affection and trust and fun. Beautiful.

If you want to talk about "natural" feeding habits for your bird...Forage-free-feeding is truly the most accurate way to replicate a parrot's wild environment, because in the wild they are neither food-managed nor do they sit at a bowl all day. They always have access to food if they're hungry but they just have to forage - just like me when I want some oreos and I have to "forage" through the pantry to find them, lol. Birds are not yet domesticated animals, like dogs. All parrot pets are merely tamed to certain degrees. It will take many, many more generations for them to be domesticated. So they still do require a lot of natural-environment-reproduction. A foraging parrot is a busy, happy, mentally-stimulated parrot and is not getting fat or being bored or chewing all day. They're doing what they love to do - hunt for foods!

As I said on the other topic, I believe that the bird has the RIGHT to eat when he's hungry, and if he's hungry at 1:45 in the afternoon when I'm not home he should be given the dignity and respect that he can choose to eat when he wants. This is my belief and opinion and our lifestyle.

We do trick training with Mango and he's out and around people and well behaved. No lack of interest on his part. You say that you under-feed to improve trick training...and that's simply not required. Mango's a fast learner who works for special treats or cuddles and is also a free-feeder.

You can't criticize people who use negative reinforcement [we don't, btw] and in the same breath say that you under-feed your birds so that they have to obey you and work for their food by doing what you want them to do. You can't criticize people who clip their birds' wings for "limiting their choices and forcing them into things" and in the same breath you under-feed your birds so that they have that much more motivation to trick train and learn to do things that are unnatural or that they might really not want to do because they need/want that food. You're just using another method to "force the bird". I think krokus's post on another topic --> viewtopic.php?p=36201#p36201 is well phrased to form my opinion of food deprivation training methods.

No aggression or hormonal behavior over here from our free-fed bird. So I see no need to modify our lifestyle. He loves training even without treats because it must just be fun for him. In fact, he's always been a bit underweight (we've seen the vet and done lots of tests for underlying health reasons, but he's just a slight bird, kind of like me) so I would never dream of trying to food manage him for health reasons. Vet-approved plan.

Mango wakes up around 5 am and we wake up around 8 on weekdays (a bit later on weekends) and we're pretty sure he does a looot of eating in those wee hours. Hey, I wake up hungry, too. What kind of cruel animal owner would I be if I made him wait 3 hours after waking up to get a bite to eat? And just because I'm not willing to wake up at 5am to fill his bowl and then go back to bed does not make me a bad bird owner. That's why we decided to change/refill his food and water in the evenings.

I also agree with Entranced about being "flexible" and with Roz about life happening. I do not train at 5:37pm, sharp, Tuesdays-Thursdays...we train when we feel like it. I don't want him to expect it because I'm not always going to be able to be there. If he expects it and it doesn't happen that can be very traumatizing psychologically. It might be because I had to stay late at work, or even because I just don't feel like it at the time. The same with feeding. God forbid I have to stay late, my fiance's caught in traffic...and my poor bird is at home waiting for his scheduled mealtime?

It works for us. We're not going to change. I've outlined my reasons and beliefs and opinions and justified my decisions for my family. My bird and I communicate our needs and wants and we live together happily and healthily. Stop being so aggressive at people. Stop implying that certain people don't deserve their birds because they don't agree with or choose to use your methods.

- - - - - - -






You've got some people posting in this topic, such as Roz or Mona, who have years more experience handling, raising, and training birds - of all different species - than you do. You call yourself the parrot wizard, but that's a bit of hubris when you put it into perspective. I think it would be wise to humble yourself a bit and take their experience and words into account instead of flat-out arguing with everyone. They've both been really well-spoken and polite about what they have to contribute, too.

Man, I've probably said way more than enough and I apologize if I'm rambly and I really apologize in advance because I know that I've written this post more aggressively than I normally would have wanted to. Just do me the favor of not dissecting my post to respond and quote my sentence by sentence because that's always a sure way to take things out of context and reflect a bad attitude on a forum.

[Michael]

If I had a dog right now, there are things I would not do. I would not have a doggie door to the outside world so that he could run and run and run free in the roads and yards, as one might say a dog should, whenever he so chooses. I would not take him on a walk through the city streets or on a hike without a collar and a leash.

If you want to talk about dogs vs parrots, then a better analogy is that food management/training is like teaching a dog not to destroy the furniture or go in certain areas. Clipping is more like tying a dog on a very short leash in the house and never allowing it to go anywhere beyond that except when the owner comes and moves it. Maybe an even better analogy would be the above while adding a choke or zap collar because flight attempts are futile and punishing.

Also, stop saying that the bird is punished with pain for its flight attempts because you think it crashes to the ground and immediately gets hurt. A properly clipped bird simply flutters and can land safely - no pain, no punishment.

This is irrelevant. It is still punishment. A clipped bird learns that it cannot fly to where it wants to go so it tries to fly less. This is punishment, the reduction of behavior. Only when the clip is light or the bird is a good flier that this punishment is ineffective. Cmon, if clipping wasn't to punish the bird it would be pretty silly. The bird would try to fly like 50 times every day forever and it would be pretty bad and difficult for the owner. However, it is done with the knowledge that it will teach the bird to not even try to fly (for the most part, reflex is different), therefore it is punishment.

Stop saying that a clipped bird is not a real bird. A dog on a leash, without a canine pack, not roaming free and hunting deer, is not a real dog? An indoor cat is not a cat?

Clipped parrots don't express one of the most characteristic behaviors of their class: flight. You cannot begin to understand avian behavior and what they're like without it. When flighted, they behave totally different (their real selves) than clipped. Clipping creates a state of helplessness and dependence that is not at all what parrots are like. The dog and cat examples are pointless because they can still run around the house, they can still hunt rodents, they can still exhibit, even if limited, their natural instincts. A flighted parrot in a limited environment can also at least to some extent exhibit it's more natural way of life (obviously not to the complete extent but it can fly away from the owner when it doesn't want something which is not the case with clipped). I think I heard someone else say that if you want to compare a dog to a clipped parrot, you should try tying it up to a tree.

Since these differences are so drastic, saying what works on clipped parrots out of their helplessness does not necessarily what works for parrots in general because flighted parrots may always respond to that kind of treatment by flying away. However, if you look at what training works on flighted parrots, bringing it back to clipped parrots works well and is probably psychologically less harmful.

Stop calling clipping a physically abusive action. It doesn't hurt. Feathers are fingernails.

You really really missed the point.

But I also must admit that I need the ability to put him in his cage even if he'd rather stay out and play - because I need to go to work or something - and I don't want to fight with him about it and risk, well...a chase and crash landing.

I admit I've made mistakes. I share them so others might not make them. However, we've solved these problems. My birds gladly fly to me for the opportunity to go back in their cages because of the way I have their schedule set up. I'm not starving them. They are just used to the routine of 10AM/9PM time to fly to me to be put back into cage. I'll admit it's tougher at other times and they are less likely to fly to me just to be put away. However, I don't have any issues with this any more. They will step up or let me grab them to be put away. I think Truman just needed more time getting used to routine, recall, and trusting me and it was my fault for being too used to Kili and rushing him.

Also, fun fact, Mango's got a pretty good recall despite being non-flighted. He'll skitter across the whole apartment on the floor to get to us if we're in the kitchen, or he'll race across the desk and over obstacles just to be on our hand. I like that he does that regardless of "potential for food."

You sure this is recall? Just sounds like following around. It's really easy to get a parrot (more likely flighted) to follow you around cause it's curious. It's a heck of a lot harder to get it to come to you where and when you want it to. Two very different things.

If you want to talk about "natural" feeding habits for your bird...[color=#0000FF]Forage-free-feeding is truly the most accurate way to replicate a parrot's wild environment, because in the wild they are neither food-managed nor do they sit at a bowl all day.

I totally agree with foraging. It's a great solution for many people. I don't do it because I flight train and trick train. I use the same mental mechanism but I change the method of attaining it (doing tricks, etc). Foraging is more natural but the benefit of trick training is that it helps the bird bond with the owner more and teaches it useful behavior (recall, handling, etc).

As for Mona, she has an entire room dedicated to her parrots. She has to deal with flock dynamics and other issues all the time. We talk about this a lot. However, there is much less behavior management required when the birds aren't flying free around your entire home. Mona cages most of her parrots when she brings them into her living room (but considering she lets them fly around the bird room, I think is a reasonable compromise). As for myself and Adel, we have our birds living in the same room as us so it's a completely different story. We didn't take away their ability to be a bird. Instead we've made changes to our household environment, we've made changes to our routines, we've done training, etc. It may sound like a lot but deciding on making the changes is a bigger component of it because when you're used to it, it just works (mostly).

We do trick training with Mango and he's out and around people and well behaved. No lack of interest on his part. You say that you under-feed to improve trick training...and that's simply not required. Mango's a fast learner who works for special treats or cuddles and is also a free-feeder.

Advanced and flighted tricks do require it. The basic tricks can be taught this way but when it comes to puzzles, color ring sorting, and flying, it seems they need that extra boost of motivation. It's like Kili's brain turns on when she is hungry. She may attempt the color sort when she's not hungry but she just can't get the colors right. Then when she's hungry she gets it all on the first try. It's like the brain needs that element of hunger to go full drive. Same thing with flight. Getting a flight recall or two without withholding food is possible. But not going to happen a lot of times because the energy required to do the flights exceeds the rewards (toys, attention, etc).

[b]You can't criticize people who use negative reinforcement [we don't, btw] and in the same breath say that you under-feed your birds so that they have to obey you and work for their food by doing what you want them to do.

This doesn't make any sense. I use negative reinforcement. I think it is useful. I just don't think it is as effective as primary reinforcement or should be used excessively.

You can't criticize people who clip their birds' wings for "limiting their choices and forcing them into things" and in the same breath you under-feed your birds so that they have that much more motivation to trick train and learn to do things that are unnatural or that they might really not want to do because they need/want that food. You're just using another method to "force the bird".

Ok, now you're just being stupid. Comparing the kind of force by shifting feeding and giving choices vs entirely clipping wings with no way of undoing it for some time are incomparable. Limiting their feeding to specific times of the day and/or as reward for specific behaviors still lets them eat as much as they need, without overfeeding, and helps shape their behavior for living in a human environment. This is just a matter of shifting the timing and consequences of food intake. So instead of eating a little at a time all day for no reason, the bird gets to eat when it catches itself performing specific behaviors and during routine feeding times. The birds adapt to the routine and expect their food at those times (and they get it). As for doing tricks, flight, etc, they are free to refuse. They are not so starved that they will die if they don't do it (or even have health problems for that matter as long as it is done safely). They will just have to wait until the routine time to get it. But usually they like the treats and I'm guessing that outweighs the hardship of doing the behaviors so they do it. But they want the treats because they didn't just eat a moment before and can't have anything. It's like eating a huge meal and you're stuffed and then someone offers desert. You either don't want it or overeat by eating it.

Furthermore, parrots have a crop. They have about 2 days of food in there to go on before they begin eating into their body reserves. So withholding food for one half of one day just means they deplete their amount a little before replenishing it. Certainly they'll have a desire to fill it back up but by no means is their stomach or body being deprived of food. Think of it as restocking your refrigerator before it runs empty. You still have food but you don't want to have nothing left so you go shopping before it is empty.

But comparing clipping to this is stupid. Clipping completely eliminates flight and choices. The bird is helpless and at your mercy. Food management shifts the weight of those choices and imitates scarcity in the environment. When less food can be found (like a drought or famine), the bird will try harder to get the food. The difference with captive food managed birds is that if they refuse to train, they still have the safety net of cage feeding to fall back on. So they completely have the choice whether to participate and get instant reward or not participate and wait a little (their digestive system is not running empty because they have a crop). The clipped bird has absolutely no choice in terms of flying away to escape danger (which is their reflex to do) and it has to do anything the owner instills on them. If the owner puts the bird here or puts it there, it has to accept it. The only thing they have left is biting but it's easy for you to ignore a little bird and make it realize that even biting is futile (may not be the case with bigger birds which is why I think clipping makes birds way more aggressive). Clipping forces a bird not to get any flight related exercise, their muscles atrophy, their cardio-respiratory systems barely get any exercise. But I think the most demeaning and abusive thing of all is that clipped owners force their parrots to do things with a "because I said so" attitude (which has been very evident in some other responses). Much of the "parrotness" is flooded out of the parrot with clipping and punishment.

If you're going to compare which is more cruel, inhibiting, or detrimental to a parrot, then clearly clipping is because if affects far more facets of its life and in absolute ways. It makes no sense why you would bring up an argument like this because it only demonstrates how much more overwhelming and unreasonable your way of dealing with a specific issue is. One is completely forceful without any choice to the parrot that entirely changes the parrot while the other increases the likelihood of an outcome but still giving the parrot the choice not to. If food management isn't solving an issue, it is a folly to think it requires more food management (if it was done sufficiently to increase motivation for other comparable behavior), then it requires a different training approach or environmental adjustment. Clipping has no calibration, the bird either is or isn't (I know there are limited or partial clips but there is a certain breaking point where the parrot does fly to where it wants to go and where it can't).

Mango wakes up around 5 am and we wake up around 8 on weekdays (a bit later on weekends) and we're pretty sure he does a looot of eating in those wee hours. Hey, I wake up hungry, too. What kind of cruel animal owner would I be if I made him wait 3 hours after waking up to get a bite to eat? And just because I'm not willing to wake up at 5am to fill his bowl and then go back to bed does not make me a bad bird owner. That's why we decided to change/refill his food and water in the evenings.

Nothing cruel about that. If bakery owners discard leftovers at 8AM and the pigeons flock to eat then, that's when it happens. I think parrots learn to adapt to the timing of their environment for when to eat as well. My preference though is to cover the cages and use lights on timers to tune the environmental parameters to my work schedule. It's not natural, but the bird doesn't really know the difference. And as previously mentioned, they'll still have food in their crop at this time so it's more of a matter of replenishing the reserve rather than keeping the stomach from running out. It's like a little gas tank they have with them and they want to fill it up before it runs empty to minimize their risk of running out, however, it's not harmful to deplete it more before refilling it as long as it is never forced to run empty.

I also agree with Entranced about being "flexible" and with Roz about life happening. I do not train at 5:37pm, sharp, Tuesdays-Thursdays...we train when we feel like it. I don't want him to expect it because I'm not always going to be able to be there. If he expects it and it doesn't happen that can be very traumatizing psychologically. It might be because I had to stay late at work, or even because I just don't feel like it at the time. The same with feeding. God forbid I have to stay late, my fiance's caught in traffic...and my poor bird is at home waiting for his scheduled mealtime?

Unlike us, they have a crop. On rainy days they may get little or no feeding in the wild. It's natural for them to deal with things (but I don't recommend pushing it, just the occasional honest accident). I'm very careful about coming home in time to feed them and for the vast vast most part this has paid off. I don't make commitments that could make me late to feed my birds. If I know ahead of time, I leave more food that day. The rare accidental lateness is no big deal and I think they should learn to deal with that too. They just may end up running their crop down more than usual before they get fed.

It works for us. We're not going to change. I've outlined my reasons and beliefs and opinions and justified my decisions for my family. My bird and I communicate our needs and wants and we live together happily and healthily. Stop being so aggressive at people. Stop implying that certain people don't deserve their birds because they don't agree with or choose to use your methods.

Oh, I don't really care that much about how people manage their parrots food. It's just that a lot of people were saying how they see no reason to manage the food, that they don't have to keep their parrots from flying all over the place or the need to recall them, then it turned out that it was because they decided to completely eliminate their ability to fly all together. The arguments you and others have been using against food management are all the result of a far crueler thing you've done to your parrot. You play the innocence card about dealing with food (all day rather than at certain times of the day, and nothing more) when you are depriving your parrot so much more!

Depriving it of choice, instinct, exercise, happiness (I don't necessarily believe this as a behavioralist but I think many other people who keep their parrots flighted will tell you it makes their parrots happier), when so much of their anatomy and lifestyle revolves around flight in my opinion is cruel. It's already bad enough we keep them in cages most of the time, but not letting them fly when they are out ends up entirely withholding something they really need. Withholding food some of the time is surely much less cruel than withholding flight all of the time.

Unless you can show me a flighted parrot entirely trained not to ever fly, it is very clear that parrots choose to fly as much as they choose to eat. Taking a little bit of food away is far less harmful than taking that flight away entirely. Both may be done for selfish self-interest of maintaining order in our human household, but the clipped parrot gets the short end of the stick! Clipped parrots are far more likely to develop health, plucking, and aggression issues. Shifting feeding time does nothing of this because the bird has a crop to take food from for longer than food is being withheld. You couldn't deal with keeping a bird (whether it was training, changing your environment a little, etc), so you decided to take it in your hands not to let it be a bird any more.

[LyzGrace]

[jayebird]

Well, I don't really see much more point in replying to this topic since I read you, Michael, explicitly call me, Jaye, "stupid" twice before I stopped reading your post. If you're going to disqualify anything I say by calling me names then really...there's no point. This is almost as bad as an RPG forum flamewar.

Way to heighten the level of discourse on this discussion, yeah? Grow up.

I come to this forum for pretty much everyone but you, so I'll just keep doing that. Just lock this post and end the negativity. This whole thing's gone sour and you, as the forum owner, have done nothing but help that happen.

[LyzGrace]

Just lock this post and end the negativity.

This. And quite a few other things that Jaye said... but mainly this.

[Michael]

Well, I don't really see much more point in replying to this topic since I read you, Michael, explicitly call me, Jaye, "stupid" twice before I stopped reading your post. If you're going to disqualify anything I say by calling me names then really...there's no point. This is almost as bad as an RPG forum flamewar.

Way to heighten the level of discourse on this discussion, yeah? Grow up.

I come to this forum for pretty much everyone but you, so I'll just keep doing that. Just lock this post and end the negativity. This whole thing's gone sour and you, as the forum owner, have done nothing but help that happen.

It's ok, you have nothing better to say or reply about cause you know you're wrong for clipping your bird and there's no point arguing about it. At the end of the day, my birds are freer, happier, more fun, healthier and that's all that really matters to me.

[LyzGrace]

It's ok, you have nothing better to say or reply about cause you know you're wrong for clipping your bird and there's no point arguing about it. At the end of the day, my birds are freer, happier, more fun, healthier and that's all that really matters to me.

Phaahaha... forum owner has become his own troll

Can we PLEASE just let this DIE? Maybe I'm some sort of emotional masochist for reading this every time a see a new post, but seriously... the spikes in blood pressure are just too much. Leave him to his arrogant self.

[patdbunny]

Maybe I'm some sort of emotional masochist for reading this every time a see a new post, but seriously... the spikes in blood pressure are just too much.

YEAH! I KNOW RIGHT?!
It's like rubber-necking at a nasty 10 car pile up. You know you shouldn't, but you do. . .

[GlassOnion]

Maybe I'm some sort of emotional masochist for reading this every time a see a new post, but seriously... the spikes in blood pressure are just too much.

YEAH! I KNOW RIGHT?!
It's like rubber-necking at a nasty 10 car pile up. You know you shouldn't, but you do. . .

Yeah hahahahah! ^ I'm almost scared to post.. but 2 concrete things..

1. My birds enjoy their flight immensely, I would never take that away from them as I believe that is the worst thing I could ever do in the title of, "I want the best for my birds and I" There is no argument that a flighted bird is a happy, confident, better exercised bird.

2. Do what works for you and think is the best choice.....