Red palm oil

[spiral71]

i found the power treats to be very helpful to my bird and they have helped her regrow freathers under her wing. she is cuffrently also on high potency and friuts gains and vegetables.

she is 6 years old and was molting alots so i did not want her losing wait but i am not going to use power treats all the time because they are intended for when she needs extra energy so thats when i will use them but they deafinatly improved her skin and freathers.

Does anyone know why they are so hard. Is it to keep the parrots beak in shape ?

[Eric&Rebecca]

Possibly because they are baked at high temperatures and extruded and also i think to keep them entertained I think it stops them from crumbling... I've never used them though so I wouldn't know.

High potency, as you've mentioned, states that its to be used for a period of time and not for the whole life which is why they have adult lifetime range. As you quite rightly said, she's not going to be on them forever, its just something to help her out now.

[Eric&Rebecca]

and here's an article Michael wrote about Roudybush pellets elsewhere on the forum which also addresses the raw diet etc... Very very interesting. I can't get Roudybush in the UK but I have TOPS which I think is the next best equivalent.

http://trainedparrot.com/Roudybush/

[Pajarita]

Well, for one thing, this is the study that Cockatiel Cottage was referring to (http://jn.nutrition.org/content/131/7/2014.full) and it lasted only 11 months and the diet did not include any fresh food so, in reality, the results are useless for the long term. For another, the diets in the Cockatiel Cottage are just the opinion of the owner of the site, there is nothing really scientific about them (cockatiels never consume meat in the wild -and no, insects don't count because their meat doesn't have any cholesterol or fat to speak of). For another, I did not imply that your birds will get sick on the diet you give them or that you are lazy in their care. I don't know where you read that in what I wrote... All I said was that it's not that hard to give them a good diet even when you don't feed pellets because birds in the wild do not eat as well as we think they do and they still thrive. Also, I find it puzzling that you mention in a pellet versus other diets discussion that your family had tiels that lived to be almost 30 which are now already dead because I would dare say that these tiels most likely did not eat pellets -or, at least, most of their lives they didn't because pellets are a fairly recent fad. Very few people had heard of them 20 years ago and even less were using them -at least, here in the States, I don't know when they started becoming popular in the UK but I do know that most bird keepers in Australia don't even feed pellets right now. And, again, I do not feed a raw diet but I did a google search on parrots raw diet and came up with not a single one that mentioned deficiencies -can you point me in the right direction? My parrots do eat raw produce but of the eight tiels I have now, only three eat leafy greens (and sparingly at that) and only one eats fruit (and then just apple). The rest eat only the cooked grains/beans with cooked veggies (corn, carrots, peas, sweet potatoes, broccoli and whatever is added to make the flavor of the day) dish and a budgie mix for dinner while the blind one eats only seed and nothing else. And if you are referring to Dr. August Abbot of 4AnimalCare.org, his doctorate is in Religion, he is not an avian nutritionist - but if you are referrring to another August Abbot, please let me know.

And, no, you cannot use a cockatiel diet for a GCC. Cockatiels are partial ground foragers and eat a large amount of seeds in the wild while conures are canopy feeders mostly and eat fruits, buds, flowers and the occasional green seed so they cannot tolerate the high protein diet of the cockatiels. But if your bird dunks the pellets in the water and allows them to become soaked, it should be OK. The pellets dryness is just one of my concerns about them and, if you are interested, I can tell you what the other concerns are. Mind you, I am not an avian nutritionist. I've just had to deal with a lot of birds which were sick because of the diet they had gotten before they came to me and I had to learn how to correct the problems as well as not make them worse -thus, all my research (which is not done on websites or based on what this person or another says -not even Avian vets).

[Eric&Rebecca]

No different person because the avian nutritionist is in fact a woman... not a he so probably the wrong person there. But nevertheless the person you looked up is oddly an avian vet... Wierd! Two Dr August Abbot's. Although if the other August Abbot has a degree in religion and then took a further qualification and had a lifestyle change and became an avian vet I don't think that makes them any less qualified... However, luckily the Dr/AV/AN to which I refer is not that one. I only portray what she told me and do not have an essay to back it up.

Cockatiel Cottage- if you look at the owners credentials she actually surprisingly similar to you. Someone who has been out and studied endless papers and consulted various people on cockatiel nutrition and put it somewhere for us all to read. I also simply used this link to illustrate the diet I feed my cockatiels, I don't think because its an owner and not someone with a million qualifications or papers written on the subject it deserves any less respect. After all what I'm saying and what you are saying are mere opinions not absolute facts. I

n fact the diet she talks about are diets being used by professionals with cockatiels, including Dr Ross Perry, (there's videos on youtube) and I've written to him on some occasions, he is also one of leading experts on PBFD if that helps you track down the right person. I think there's another one that is a holistic therapist who has some contradictory ideas but the same name so I thought I'd prewarn you of that one! People should have different names in similar professions! LOL It's a proven diet for COCKATIELS, one of many options but I felt cockatiel cottage explained it most simply for all on the forum rather than other word articles inaccessible to some of us needing a faster overview. It wasn't meant as an evidence of scientific proof but a more 'plain' explanation.

This article also pulls in other sources, which you've also discredited has wrong so there's little point of the further studies which are mentioned in Michael's link regarding a Dr Roudybush. Roudybush pellets, the same Roudybush in Michael's article and the same pellets he uses. I'm trying to show how the problems with kidney damage related to pellets are now near obsolete due to better understanding of avian nutrition which is addressed in both articles. This has also addressed other concerns you have voiced regarding high protein for smaller birds (TOPS and Roudybush) were developed on cockatiels/smaller parakeets. Also, there WAS a problem with early pellets you are quite right however this was resolved fairly quickly into introduction and was further improved in the 90s and again more recently with new legislations and standards on avian foods.

Now to address your problem of me producing evidence of the articles (which I never stated articles but vetinary accounts). I have been advised by AV's and more than one Avian Nutritionist- that unless you know exactly what you're doing with your particular breed of bird to stick to a form of the diet I have previously suggested. They said they have personally seen a lot of birds end up with health problems and deficiencies because the owner hasn't done it correctly or that particular bird doesn't eat as much or certain things or the bird simply as an individual needs more of something. This cockatiel diet covers all bases. If yours works too then great and you're obviously NOT one of the owners that going to do it wrong... i've never said yours is wrong I just have an issue with pellets being branded as bad and I'm simply addressing your concerns using accessible articles for everyone, which may not be the most scientific but they still make the same point. Most, me included, cannot obtain the knowledge you have and pellets help us, telling us in a way (which I have clearly misinterpreted! and I apologise! Profusely!) that pellets are kidney failure in a bag makes us feel a bit rubbed up the wrong way shall we say.

This leads me onto how I conduct research. I think its important to listen to good AV's (many bad AV's out there I know) and avian nutritionists. Not all of them have papers or actually physical proof I can put in front of you but its not heresay its a collection of professional opinions who can put it in plain English. If my AV says its very difficult, I'm going to take his word for it, he also has avian nutrition qualifications although this wasn't his first degree he is parakeet consultant to the ZSL aviary and a large parakeet breeding aviary in Dublin Zoo. The resident nutritonist as my AVas well as a registered consultant to Loro Parque. I don't take my people I ask advice from lightly. Anyway that's not really the point.

Additionally, my family members have been using pellets in some form ever since their conception as we had a UK AV (one of the very few at the time) who came from the States and imported his own food for his own birds which we fed to the cockatiels I believe this was the early 80's, I wasn't around till the 90's by which time knowledgeable owners had them so you'd probably have abetter idea than me. You're correct maybe he didn't have it all of their lives but certainly the vast majority (at least the parts for which I was alive!). The cockatiels that survived 20 years were all bought around my birth date from various stocks in 1990 for a small family aviary which had my name above it in a woof engraved plaque, all of which were fed the diet I now feed my baby boys. This was towards the end of that particular AV's practice and after which pellets were then available to order in the right places, ALSO in 1994 another small aviary was purchased with budgies who then started a completely different diet void of pellets but still followed the same sort of pattern but replaced pellets with more rice, pulses and seeds. In 2000+ became commercially available. At least that's my sketchy knowledge of things despite my difficulty finding a good pellet when I came to own birds myself. Luckily the forum was here to point me in the right direction.

I'm sure in your research you could find a scientific article which backs up the use of this diet in cockatiels. As i've stated in all my posts I never professed to know if this was applicable to other species, only that it worked for cockatiels and that conures are not the same species. And i do apologise but the written word often carries a tone you don't expect and can be interpreted as perhaps arrogance or condescending. I apologise if that was incorrect of me.

I hope this post has cleared things up and i will not post any further on the subject as to avoid confusion for other users of this forum and may I also apologise to Jacquie's post than we hijacked!

[KimberlyAnn]

I would like to hear what you dislike about pellets. Pellets are so new to me and in my short research, I've only heard they were the best to feed. There has got to be more to it then that. I think finding other things to search besides "Are pellets bad for birds?" would be really be beneficial to me. I'm learning so much from both sides as it is! For me, this is great! I've been waiting for something like this to come up because I'm so interested in nutrition as it is.

And hahaha What are the chances of two doctors with the same name (August is not a common name!) AND they have bird connections?

[Eric&Rebecca]

That's a great idea KimberleyAnn. Parajita- you should make a post about all your research. Its very hard for us to understand because we only have snippets of your concerns. Why not put a post together of some of your research with some links to help people link KimberleyAnn. I think that would be a gret idea.

Mine is cockatiel specific so there's probably not a huge amount of point me doing that but perhaps it would help others understand your convictions

And I know! Luckily ones a he and ones a she!

[Pajarita]

Lord, I can't post all my research. For one thing, lots of the studies are only accessible if you suscribe or become a paying member so although I can read them, I can't post them. And, for another, what I feed my birds is still is a work in progress. I am constantly researching and tweaking their diet and supplements here and there but, basically, my concern about pellets is as follows (mind you, some of these do not involve TOP's).

1. Dryness. It's aboslutely and completely unnatural for a parrot to eat any type of dry food. Plant material has between 80% (branches) and 95% (fruits) moisture content. Even ground foragers eat mostly green seeds (seeds that are still in the plant, usually grasses) which have more water in them than the dry ones we feed (for example, seed heads -seeds still in the plant aka green seed- has about 50% while dried hulled barley, kept at 45% humidity will have a 10% water content) so pellets which are usualy at around 4% are incredibly dry as food for a parrot. Several of my AVs have told me that dehydration is a common problem with pet birds, a problem that often goes unnoticed by owners (not their fault, I couldn't even tell whether a bird is mildy dehydrated or not and I've cared for hundreds of them) and a chronic mild dehydration will lead to kidney problems (not my opinion, mind you, but a scientific fact).

2. Soy (TOPs don't have soy). I do not feed soy to any of my animals, birds, dogs or cats. Soy is a very cheap source of protein but it also has estrogenic properties as well as goitrogenic PLUS it's highly toxic in its natural state and needs to be treated in order to be consumed and, in my mind, anything that nature made poisonous should remain poisonous and not be consumed.

3. Nutritional values. They NEVER give you an exact value, everything is always less than or more than (and, R&E, TOPs doesn't give you exact values, either -I just looked it up).

4. Taste. Have any of you ever tasted them? I am not talking the colored fruity pebbles ones that have all kinds of bad things in them, I am talking the 'good' ones like Harrison's, they are BLAND BLAND BLAND!

5. Preservatives. No good unless they are absolutely natural but even those are not necessary if you make their food yourself and freeze it. And I am not even going to go into the artificial coloring and flavoring or the fact that most of them have ash in them -what's the benefit of feeding ash to a bird?

6. Added vitamins - The greatest majority of them add man-made vitamins to them, something we are now beginning to realize through studies done on humans (and we are the ultimate domesticated animal while parrots are still undomesticated) that are not as efficacious as the naturally-derived (and in perfect synergy) ones from fresh fruits and veggies. PLUS (and this is a BIG beef of mine with pellets), most of them add vitamin A and vitamin D3 as well as calcium to them which is NOT GOOD as vitamin A and vitamin D3 were never meant to be ingested in their final forms but for animals to eat the precursor (betacarotene for vit A) or make the chemical reaction (as in vit D3) and convert ONLY AS MUCH AS NEEDED -why? Because the body has no mechanism to get rid of the excess and as they are both fat soluble, they end up been stored in the liver in the form of fatty nodules -the precursors of the dreaded fatty liver disease (hepatic lipidosis) in parrots. And feeding them calcium along with vit D3 on a daily basis has another problem which was identified by canary breeders many years ago and it's the risk of the bird's body to lose the abilty to move calcium in and out of its bones (canary breeders learned this the hard way -I been breeding canaries for many years-; you need to supplement calcium with D3 five days and stop for two even with birds that are badly decalcified or you screw up the blood calcium AND the in and out of bones process). I know of a bird rescuer who feeds Harrison's and has had birds died of eggbinding which, supposedly, cannot happen while I breed canaries and have kept birds for over 40 years and have NEVER had a single case of eggbinding.

7. You can't add anything to them unless you soak them and, although you don't need the ability to do this when they are young, you will need it as they get older because not all supplements can be added to water.

My point is that pellets are, in most cases, just low quality grains that were processed, had man-made vitamins and minerals added to them and pressed into dangerously dry, bland little thingies but you can cook the same grains (well, not the same because when you cook them, you buy human-grade grains and not animal feed grains -and there is a BIG difference and I know because I used to work for a grain shipping company), add good veggies as well as flavorings to them and get a better product. You control the entire process from beginning to end as well as the result. And it's not hard at all. I shop once a week for them to ensure freshness in the grains, I cook them, mix them, freeze half, prepare the other half into the basic recipe, split into daily portions in freezer bags and freeze them. Then, everyday, I thaw one baggie and the following morning, I doctor the basic recipe adding more stuff and flavoring (spices, honey, lemon rind, etc) alternating one day spicy and one day fruity. I add certain supplements to the entire bowl and then add the specific ones that particular bird might need.

As to a 'balanced diet', well, you don't really think that the same pellet that is fed to, say, five different species would actually hit it right on the nail for all five, do you? For example, a medium size pellet would be for senegals (which can withstand higher protein with no problem), conures (which can take mid-protein), pionus (lower protein as they are mostly fruit eaters), IRNS, etc. so the 'balanced' diet they advertise is balanced for which one?

Another interesting note (but it's only anecdotal) is that there are less parrots that pluck in Australia than in the States and people are beginning to attribute this to the fact that most Australians feed seed and fruits and not pellets.

[marie83]

Can I just point out that ASH is not actually ash, it is all the minerals thats leftover when everything else has been stripped away. I think distilling water is the only way to get rid of ASH for instance.

Actually i have a few more points at random, these are just a few of them.

3. Some pellet companies will provide you with the info if requested.

4. you say they are bland, ok fine I agree they are because I have tasted them but my birds love them so what does that matter?




6. Whilst egg binding does have to do with calcium and D3 its more to do with the entire all round balance of food, particuarly Vit A. (edited to make what I'm trying to say clearer) I am not saying calcium and d3 aren't important or even that they don't play a big role but these are only the most commonly known factors, other vits and minerals play a part too. I'm just singling Vit A out as example as its becoming better known as one of the leading causes.

"As to a 'balanced diet', well, you don't really think that the same pellet that is fed to, say, five different species would actually hit it right on the nail for all five, do you?" - for me, no absolutely not but it is better than the guess work 99% of parrot owners are likely to do. It provides a base to work around. If as a novice at nutrition you feed spinach one day and broccoli another and rotate them round along with whatever else you might have in your going to run into problems pretty fast. Same with fruit, our fruit is nowhjere near the same as wild fruit it has been heavily cultivated and contains far far more suger than the wild version would.

7. Why would you want to add supplements if their diet is so easy to balance anyway? supplements are generally synthetic contradicting your earlier point about adding them to pellets.

The fact pellets are dry can be worked around.

[KimberlyAnn]

Please euse me, I am very tired so I won't go looking for links tonight. Lol I have to wait for laundry to dry before I go to bed so I thought I would put in my two cents.

Three things stood out to me...

Soy.

Soy started out as a food of the poor who could not afford meat long ago. Soy is not a good protein! Not for animals and not for humans. It is ok in drastic cases like human infants that cannot get milk from their mother and are sensitive to formula. But soy is actually a protien blocker. It does contribute to poor muscle quality among other things. I still think it's funny that people raised it up as such a huge health food when it's really not. But I guess if you are a vegetarian and like fake formed meat...it's number one? Lol Yum...soy bacon...it's so not like the real thing...

That being said. My second thing is, I don't know if soy is in RowdyBush pellets. I tossed the bag because it ripped and I will just have to wait to see when I go to the store next or write the company.

The third thing is preservatives. I would rather eat food that will eventually spoil. Fresh is best for everyone for sure. But I do understand that our population is so huge now that we could have trouble feeding the whole world fresh foods. Between eating and not eating...I would pick preserved foods.

I think if I knew what was in the pellets, I would be able to feed a pretty good natural diet if Emmi does eat everything I'm giving her. Time will tell. I got a ton of research to do! If I could feed more fresh foods then I do pellets, I will be really happy.

Anyway, I will read again tomorrow. I know I missed a few things.