Red palm oil

[Eric&Rebecca]

I'd be interested to hear what you think about TOPS Parajita in particular which use no synthetic vitamins and are 100% organic when they are fed in combined with a balanced diet or fresh foods, pulses and 'table foods'- pasta, rice, etc. They are actually less in Vitamin A and D3 (which people criticize) but as you say they can easily be supplemented in other ways with natural foods. One or two vitamins is easier to put in than a whole host of them, which is done by the pellets. As they were developed on cockatiels the protein level is fine. In fact the website even says they are meant as a supplement to a balanced diet.

Also the blandness- not with TOPS my birds love them and go after them like they are very tasty! They even lick the bowl clean of dust! But then I don't just feed them that so I guess to them they like it being a different taste. Also birds sense of taste is a lot different than a human's they can taste things we can't and visa versa so there's not really an adequate test of that.

As I said previously its very difficult for people to understand when you have collective knowledge we don't have. For example, Michael created a whole forum out of his knowledge- thus its easier for us to understand his convictions (even if on occassion you don't agree) because all his knowledge is there, accessible and readily available. I think this is where we are all running into difficulties.

Using pellets doesn't make us bad people- I did a lot of research around what was a 'good pellet ' when I landed on TOPS more recently however I've never experienced a problem with feeding Harrison's although I feel TOPS is a better pellet. Further research and avian professional advice lead me to the diet I have now as well as previous experiences. The diet I feed is just an alternative method it doesn't make anyone's superior over the other.

http://totallyorganics.com/t-pellets.php

As you can see also NO soy and they are cold pressed so they don't lose vitamins.

The dryness is easily overcome by a balanced diet where moisture can be derived as Marie83 keeps saying.

Also the balance as I keep saying can be rectified by the portions of pellets in conjunction with other things. I think you think we all feed them pellets and nothing else. Pellets are just a small (or larger depending on pellet or bird) part of a wider diet. No one is saying that one brand of pellet will provide for every single species without feeding other foods, but that's where percentages and species specific research comes in. The pellets full the gaps you can't without extremely in depth knowledge or covers your bases with the things your fresh parts or pulse parts or 'table' food parts aren't covering It's more of a safety net in my case with my cockatiels.

its all about how you apply the pellets into wider areas of the diet and when used correctly and as part of something bigger its not the terrible awful thing that's going to kill your bird but instead help them to have a more rounded diet.

At least IMO, for what its worth, which is probably miniscule considering the lack of knowledge I seemingly have...

[KimberlyAnn]

So, I hunted around a little and got ingredients lists for Tops and Rowdybush. Honestly, I guess I just saw Rowdybush so much here so that's what I got. I figured that I would start her eating fresh foods, give her the pellets all day, and work everything out later since it's been a crazy year so far and she's so young.

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Rowdybush...

Ground Corn, Ground Wheat, Soy Meal, Soy Oil, Calcium Carbonate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Salt, DL-Methionine, L-Arginine, Niacin, Mixed Tocopherols, Rosemary Extract, Ascorbic Acid, Citric Acid, Lecithin, Silicon Dioxide (carrier for liquid antioxidants), Alpha Tocopherol Acetate (source of Vitamin E), Ascorbic Acid, Manganese Sulfate, Yucca shidigera Extract, Hydrated Sodium Calcium Aluminosilicate, Dried Yeast, Biotin, Calcium Pantothenate, Zinc Oxide, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin A Acetate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (Vitamin K), Ethylenediamine Dihydroiodide, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid, Cyanocobalamin (source of Vitamin B12), Sodium Selenite (on Calcium Carbonate), Propionic Acid, Ammonium Hydroxide, Acetic Acid, Sorbic Acid, Tartaric Acid, and Natural Apple Flavoring.

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Obviously, I'm feeding my bird something that's corn/wheat/soy with vitamins. Lol It's a very long list to go through. And if I'm feeding veggies and fruits already...does she really need all those vitamins? I would have to look into this more. Most of the stuff here, we've already talked about so I won't go into it. But salt? Really? Why did they put salt in pellets?!

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Tops...

Certified Organic Ingredients: Rice, hulled millet, barley, alfalfa leaf, sunflower seed hulled, sesame seeds unhulled, quinoa whole, buckwheat hulled, dandelion leaf powder, carrot powder, spinach leaf powder, purple dulse, kelp, rose hips powder, rose hips crushed, orange peel powder, lemon peel powder, rosemary whole leaf, cayenne ground, crushed red chili peppers, nettle leaf.

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This is a list that is very understandable! There are some foods in here that I had no idea birds could even eat! Kelp? Awesome! Rosemary? I grow that myself! That is a very nutritious food! Citrus peel? Hmmmmm I bet she would love that! I have to check and see if these things are bird safe when raw! I already put lemon slices in my water daily so it is easy to get out my lemon zester and put a few little lemon peel bits to top off her morning foods.

This is also an ingredient list I could copy quite easily in fresh foods since I have a pretty good understanding of what vitamins are in what foods or I can get that information pretty easily. Enzimes and other stuff too. I can substitute some things for others depending on the season and what's available.

My one concern is, do they account for nutrition loss in their pellets? For example, just cutting open an orange, you lose a good portion of vitamin C when exposing it to the air. Drying foods, you lose a lot more. The levels of nutrient loss is this (From least to most)...Fresh, Fresh frozen, Dried no heat, Dried with heat, Cooked.

*However, some foods need to be blanched or cooked to let out more nutrients, like with carrots and sweet potatoes.

This product has been processed at least twice. Once when drying the individual ingredients and then combining the ingredients. Since it's cold pressed, it won't lose as much so that's good! It still has a great amount of nutrient loss though. I would worry that my bird might not get a good level of vitamins on this pellet...alone. I would want to copy the ingredient list with fresh foods anyway to make sure she's getting everything she needs. Only give her pellets when I'm not home. She's only five months so I want food available at all times without growing bacteria.

Also, is this diet based on Conures or Cockatiels? I really need to fully research Conure nutrition. I can't remember who did the research on Cockatiels. Rowdybush or Tops? But for now, I'm confident that I'm almost to the point where I've gotten her to eat a good amount of fresh foods, so I can make the change to Tops when her Rowdybush runs out in a few weeks. Then I at least know she's getting all her vitamins. I guess I will introduce more fruits carefully! Because she does have that poop problem. Lol

When she's an adult, I will maybe venture into pellet free eating. It will save me lots anyway...since I apparently eat like a bird. Lol

And when I do I'm going to get that palm oil! Taada! Back on topic! Lol jk

[Pajarita]

Can I just point out that ASH is not actually ash, it is all the minerals thats leftover when everything else has been stripped away. I think distilling water is the only way to get rid of ASH for instance.

Actually i have a few more points at random, these are just a few of them.

3. Some pellet companies will provide you with the info if requested.

4. you say they are bland, ok fine I agree they are because I have tasted them but my birds love them so what does that matter?

6. Whilst egg binding does have a little to do with calcium and D3 its more to do with the entire all round balance of food, particuarly Vit A.

"As to a 'balanced diet', well, you don't really think that the same pellet that is fed to, say, five different species would actually hit it right on the nail for all five, do you?" - for me, no absolutely not but it is better than the guess work 99% of parrot owners are likely to do. It provides a base to work around. If as a novice at nutrition you feed spinach one day and broccoli another and rotate them round along with whatever else you might have in your going to run into problems pretty fast. Same with fruit, our fruit is nowhjere near the same as wild fruit it has been heavily cultivated and contains far far more suger than the wild version would.

7. Why would you want to add supplements if their diet is so easy to balance anyway? supplements are generally synthetic contradicting your earlier point about adding them to pellets.

The fact pellets are dry can be worked around.

Yes, ash is the leftover after cooking and it can be beneficial minerals but those are already listed under the Nutritional values so what the heck is it, then?

3. If the companies had the exact nutritional information available, why would they not put it on the label?

4. Are sure your birds love pellets? Because, in my personal opinion, they eat them because it's usually the only source of protein they have and, if you offer any other source (like seeds, nuts, hardboiled eggs, etc) they would go for the other source every single time and never even look at the pellets.

6. Eggbinding as A LOT to do with calcium and vit D3. It is, as a matter of fact, one of the only two reasons why a hen can get eggbound (the other one is extremely weak muscles when the bird has not been allowed to fly for years and years -the muscles that move the wings cross in the chest and become abdominal muscles and these are the same ones the hen uses to push the egg out) and the most common one BY FAR. Vit A has nothing to do with the production of an eggshell. There is another condition called dystocia which is often confused with eggbinding but it's not the same.

7. The supplements I mentioned are not vitamins. They are herbals, amino acids and stuff like that needed to maintain a bird alive when the liver is not working right and to help reduce uric acid crystals in their joints. But I do add vit C and B6 to the liver damaged birds diet and I do use their soft food for it because they need a higher dosage than you can provide with food or pellets.

Yes, the pellets can be ground and moistened but it's much harder to convert an older, sick bird to a new diet than one that is younger and healthier so it's always better to do it when there is no need instead of waiting until the eleventh hour. I do the same thing with my dogs. The young ones don't need medication but they still get the soft food I use to hide the older ones meds - this way, when they do need it, they won't be suspicious of it.

As to pellets been a good start to a balanced diet, for one thing, the people that make the pellets guess as much as you or I would because there are no scientific guidelines when it comes to parrot nutrition. And, for another, you can mess up a parrot big time even when you feed pellets if you offer stuff that is not good for them so the argument in itself is not really valid. You mention feeding spinach and broccoli and rotating them but spinach is super high in oxalic acid and should be fed VERY sparingly (my birds get spinach twice a year, if any) as calcium absorption and uric acid are always a concern with them.

[Eric&Rebecca]

TOPS was cockatiels. I think Roudybush was something else.

To answer your question about nutrient loss. TOPS are cold pressed which means no cooking or extrusion. All ingredients are bird safe, kelp is an excellent source of some hard to find vitamins and minerals but its not exactly easy to get hold of- at least where I live.

Obviously there is going to be some nutrient loss with keeping them in pellets but then there's nutrient loss when you prepare anything from its natural state- not as much but then that's why they advise to supplement it differently. TOPS last around 8 weeks and there's no need to keep them in the fridge like other pellets although you can. We go through them too quick for them to be there very long!

TOPS do a larger brand which is for Larger Parrots which has the same ingredients but in different concentrations to be better suited to larger birds. The ones we have are for smaller birds and a totally different texture and colour- (accidentally bought the wrong size! Gave them to my friends Grey!) It was a question FAQ on the store which TOPS answered. I'm not sure which size would be more suited to a conure, I think its more about what you offer around the pellets that's important and I'm afraid I've never owned a conure.

[Eric&Rebecca]

4. Are sure your birds love pellets? Because, in my personal opinion, they eat them because it's usually the only source of protein they have and, if you offer any other source (like seeds, nuts, hardboiled eggs, etc) they would go for the other source every single time and never even look at the pellets.

In my case YES! Actually, I feed my birds seeds, nuts and hard boiled eggs (on occassion). They go for the TOPS over seeds and nuts so yes I do know they love pellets. You can tell from the way they behave around them too they get excited in the same way they get excited with hard boiled egg or seeds. However when presented with the choice in the cage they go for the pellets!

Also my avian vet says using pellets is fine, he recommends TOPS and not because he's getting a hand out from them or anything like that. I've heard many avian vets and a couple of nutritionists tell me this... So they are wrong is what you're saying?- I know you said you think avian vets don't know squat (IMO some of them do! Especially mine)

I've tried to help you see the possibility that pellets could actually be ok and you've insisted that you're not telling us we are bad owners or putting our birds at risk but at every point we put across you say its all wrong. I'm not saying you should feed your birds pellets because what you do clearly works and that's fantastic but can you at least see how, for example, the diet I feed my cockatiels could also be healthy.

Again, none of us are saying our birds will live on pellets solely as the only food source and have everything they need from them to live. No one is saying that! Even TOPS say that's not what pellets do! What we're saying is could it be possible- for those without extensive knowledge of avian nutrition or for other reasons like inaccessiblity to certain things to do the diet you do- that they could implement a form of a pellet supplemented diet with a balance of things as a wider and balanced diet?

I appreciate you have a different way of doing things and it works and I'm sure others could learn from it. Your knowledge could be put to excellent use, perhaps in a different thread give us an example of a daily or weekly food schedule so we can see this in action

I think its difficult for us to hear that we're doing it all wrong without seeing an example of how to do it right.

[Pajarita]

I'd be interested to hear what you think about TOPS Parajita in particular which use no synthetic vitamins and are 100% organic when they are fed in combined with a balanced diet or fresh foods, pulses and 'table foods'- pasta, rice, etc. They are actually less in Vitamin A and D3 (which people criticize) but as you say they can easily be supplemented in other ways with natural foods. One or two vitamins is easier to put in than a whole host of them, which is done by the pellets. As they were developed on cockatiels the protein level is fine. In fact the website even says they are meant as a supplement to a balanced diet.

Also the blandness- not with TOPS my birds love them and go after them like they are very tasty! They even lick the bowl clean of dust! But then I don't just feed them that so I guess to them they like it being a different taste. Also birds sense of taste is a lot different than a human's they can taste things we can't and visa versa so there's not really an adequate test of that.

As I said previously its very difficult for people to understand when you have collective knowledge we don't have. For example, Michael created a whole forum out of his knowledge- thus its easier for us to understand his convictions (even if on occassion you don't agree) because all his knowledge is there, accessible and readily available. I think this is where we are all running into difficulties.

Using pellets doesn't make us bad people- I did a lot of research around what was a 'good pellet ' when I landed on TOPS more recently however I've never experienced a problem with feeding Harrison's although I feel TOPS is a better pellet. Further research and avian professional advice lead me to the diet I have now as well as previous experiences. The diet I feed is just an alternative method it doesn't make anyone's superior over the other.

http://totallyorganics.com/t-pellets.php

As you can see also NO soy and they are cold pressed so they don't lose vitamins.

The dryness is easily overcome by a balanced diet where moisture can be derived as Marie83 keeps saying.

Also the balance as I keep saying can be rectified by the portions of pellets in conjunction with other things. I think you think we all feed them pellets and nothing else. Pellets are just a small (or larger depending on pellet or bird) part of a wider diet. No one is saying that one brand of pellet will provide for every single species without feeding other foods, but that's where percentages and species specific research comes in. The pellets full the gaps you can't without extremely in depth knowledge or covers your bases with the things your fresh parts or pulse parts or 'table' food parts aren't covering It's more of a safety net in my case with my cockatiels.

its all about how you apply the pellets into wider areas of the diet and when used correctly and as part of something bigger its not the terrible awful thing that's going to kill your bird but instead help them to have a more rounded diet.

At least IMO, for what its worth, which is probably miniscule considering the lack of knowledge I seemingly have...

Actually, if I had no choice but to feed my birds pellets, I would MOST DEFINITELY go with TOPs. I even tried it with my birds but they would not touch them. But the dryness cannot be nullified by offering fresh produce because the fresh produce is exactly what the bird would eat in the wild -only all the time- and they would always eat more of the protein source than any fresh plant material if given half a choice. And although it is true that birds don't taste the same way we do, we taste things they don't and not the other way around so this premise works more against pellets than for them as their taste acuity is vastly inferior to ours (parrots have between 300 and 400 taste buds while humans have 10,000) so they prefer VERY strong tastes instead of bland ones. Haven't you noticed how they have no problem eating stuff that is intensely spicy, sour or bitter? Stuff that most of us would NEVER eat? Like fresh cranberries or a whole jalapeno, for example? I would say that the pellet attraction is more on the protein than the actual taste.

[KimberlyAnn]

E&R,

Find an Asian grocery or anywhere they sell sushi supplies too. Dried kelp should be used for soups. It's called Kombu. Normally it's raw and dried with nothing added, but check it out first. Find one from California if you can...that would be the most trustworthy. We have big time laws on everything (lol) and kelp is one thing we export. If you want to send me money, I can also send you some fresh from the ocean! It can be as long as a five story building so make sure you send enough for me to buy a BIG BOX! lol jk

Spirulina must be ok if kelp is ok. In fact I would pick Spirulina over kelp because it is even more dense in nutrients so any nutrient loss in the drying process is no big deal. It's very mixable and like the chili powder? Just put it on top of something. Spirulina can be found in health food stores. Sometimes in the bin foods. Or online. A little goes a looooooong way.

So, because I saw rose hips as an ingredient in Tops, I tried my EXPENSIVE dried organic rose buds I use with loose white tea, on Emmi. Sadly...she liked it! Sadly because they are very very very expensive. Lol

[janetafloat]

This discussion is very interesting, thank you all, and I'm amazed at how knowledgeable you all are! This has certainly made me question pellets and when I looked at the ingredients of the Harrison's I've been feeding Alfie I was horrified, it's really just a few grains/legumes and a bunch of vitamins. Truth is, I and my poor bird are having a miserable time with the Harrison's. He'll only touch it moistened and then, however tiny an amount of water I add it quickly turns to mush which then gets spread all over his perches and on the cage and sets like cement. I could live with that if he was eating well but he's not, sometimes he'll eat it and sometimes he won't and he's underweight. And, as Pajarita says, the stuff is like cardboard, I hate feeding him on something that is so clearly not appealing. I've had TOPS for a while but he won t touch it. I'm still working on that. Plus, the whole conversion process is clearly stressing Alfie and is contributing to his several bouts of ill health (the vet mentioned that and I agree).

[Eric&Rebecca]

What size did you use for him... maybe you could feed him the smaller hookbill size (the one with the cockatiel on the front) as a supplement and find alternative methods. If its harming him then maybe its not for him.

You can still feed them wet but just increase other portions of the diets and have new things put in to provide what you need. To my mind there's nothing wrong with anything providing its fed in moderation (apart from toxic foods of course!). There's nothing wrong with him having a moist small meal of it each day to cover over any gaps.

TOPS do have a strong earthy taste... Yes I ate one... or maybe try sprinkling some chillis or dried chilli powder on them. See if the strong taste will attract him. If not you may have to explore another dietary option.

Perhaps Parajita could suggest something to help you in this instance.

[KimberlyAnn]

Google "Bird Chop" - "Bird Mash" - "Birdie Bread" and you will find some great recipies! Maybe he will eat one of those? I've read that even the most picky eater will eat birdie bread.