Not again :(

[friend2parrots]

i'm so sorry to hear about this marie. i agree with the posters above that its not your fault, and it doesnt appear to be psychological, for the reasons that have been mentioned by the others. while i don't know enough to offer any medical advice, i did want to share a couple of thoughts in response to some of the other questions/issues you raised in your last post.

What can I get thats suitable for a bird so small?

The vet mentioned a vest a while ago but I said I wasn't willing to go that route back then but obviously things have changed. I dont like the thought of putting a collar around such a small neck and I know pennyandrocky is using scrunchies for her bird but they are too big.

I don't know whats actually available as preventative garments out there, and i dont have any experience with them myself, but if you are thinking about going down that route, then i did want to share with you that i have seen small birds wearing collars in photos on the internet, including green cheeks. you would have to check with your vet for him to prescribe the right size/style. i think they have different models for different purposes.

i am not sure which option would be better for Ollie, a vest or a jacket or a collar - your vet would have to evaluate his "reach" and see what is needed to prevent access to the area he is picking.

i am so sorry to hear that Ollie is screaming like this, and what youre going through. its heartbreaking. i hope you are able to get some answers soon.

im not sure if youve already considered this, but i was wondering if it would be possible for him to be hospitalized at a vet hospital, where he can be observed and monitored by the staff for a period of time. that way, they can also take samples of his poop at the very instant he poops them. they may also be able to do other things that they deem necessary, that might help the situation.

i'm hoping for all the best for little Ollie, and wishing you strength during this difficult time.

[Baylee4ever]

Marie i suggest. You read the links in my previous posts....good luck with the results...

[marie83]

Read them previously to you posting them, thanks baylee.
Theres no way I'm worming my birds for the sheer hell of it. Wormers were designed as a treatment not a preventative. Giardia can be prevented by other methods and they now drink, bath and get their cages cleaned in filtered water. As I said in previous posts we are going to treat for giardia this once anyway but i'll be insisting definitely not with panacur or flagyl . The symptoms are coming and going anyway so without a reliable test we cannot know if it is indeed treated as they may just be having a good spell....

Thanks everyone for your kind comments, we couldn't be without them.
We have another apointment on monday. Typically Ollie has been as good as gold the past 2 days and is already healing well which I am pleased about. I guess once again by monday I will be made to look like a liar again, I've tried to get photos but they are all washing out too much with the flash.

[spiral71]

i'm so sorry to hear about this marie. i agree with the posters above that its not your fault, and it doesnt appear to be psychological, for the reasons that have been mentioned by the others. while i don't know enough to offer any medical advice, i did want to share a couple of thoughts in response to some of the other questions/issues you raised in your last post.

What can I get thats suitable for a bird so small?

The vet mentioned a vest a while ago but I said I wasn't willing to go that route back then but obviously things have changed. I dont like the thought of putting a collar around such a small neck and I know pennyandrocky is using scrunchies for her bird but they are too big.

I don't know whats actually available as preventative garments out there, and i dont have any experience with them myself, but if you are thinking about going down that route, then i did want to share with you that i have seen small birds wearing collars in photos on the internet, including green cheeks. you would have to check with your vet for him to prescribe the right size/style. i think they have different models for different purposes.

i am not sure which option would be better for Ollie, a vest or a jacket or a collar - your vet would have to evaluate his "reach" and see what is needed to prevent access to the area he is picking.

i am so sorry to hear that Ollie is screaming like this, and what youre going through. its heartbreaking. i hope you are able to get some answers soon.

im not sure if youve already considered this, but i was wondering if it would be possible for him to be hospitalized at a vet hospital, where he can be observed and monitored by the staff for a period of time. that way, they can also take samples of his poop at the very instant he poops them. they may also be able to do other things that they deem necessary, that might help the situation.

i'm hoping for all the best for little Ollie, and wishing you strength during this difficult time.

here is a webpage with cocatiels wearing collars thought you might find the photo useful it from the italian website wich i already showed pralina goodluck with ollie http://www.iltrespolo.com/malatti-e-cur ... ione.html/

[marie83]

Just went to the vets, complete waste of time because the vet was still in theatre, I assume it was an emergancy case, and I had to get back for work so I couldn't wait longer than an hour. I know the test results are back but thats all, the nurses aren't allowed to discuss test results but she did hint they were negative again. I showed one of the nurses the scabs under Ollies wings as by the time our next appointments scheduled they will probably have come off so shes going to report back to the vet about it.

[marie83]

Right well back from the vets and yes the tests are negative for Giardia, although 3 or 4 different methods were used for the test.
We are pressing ahead with the treatment for it anyway with a possible medication change later on as my vets does not stock ronidazole but will order it in if I can provide a professional scientific report about it as he has never heard of it being used to treat giardia. I've agreed to find the documents I read as it will be quicker, and forward them but I'm leaving for work in 10 minutes so I'll have to hunt it down tomorrow which is going to be a pain in the backside as I've read so much stuff I'm going to struggle to find it again, unless anyone else can help and has a link to the PDF file and can copy and paste it for me.

Once again many thanks for all your support.

[Eric&Rebecca]

Has he not suggested testing for other things? Or indicated other options?

[marie83]

Someone shoot me please, I've spent the past several hours going back through my internet history, doing fresh internet searches etc and can I heck as like find the document I've read before that I need to send my vet. Those scientific pdf files are not easy reading so I'm going to crawl to bed now and have nightmares about them. Looks like my birds will have to stop on this practically inaffective flagyl after all or kick up a fuss and ask the vet what I'm paying him for, consultations, treatments etc but if something has been questioned shouldn't he be looking into it too?

For the record to anyone who suggests panacur, my vet will not touch the stuff for use with birds, he has pretty much backed up my previous research on it.

Also I have a question about disinfecting everything, bleach apparently is inaffective, the f10 mentions nothing about parasites, I can't find any research on what is effective apart from boiling for 3 minutes, obviously I cannot boil the entire cages so how the heck do I clean the damn things effectively?

Would I be able to soak the perches in mild bleach, scrub, rinse, allow to dry then bake them? I don't see why this wouldn't work as its heat that destroys the cysts apparently and you can bake stuff like fir cones and coconut shells (or cremate them in my case). I was hoping I might be able to do similar with a couple of Harlies toys as she has so few she will actually use and of course they are now discontinued so I cannot buy new.

Has he not suggested testing for other things? Or indicated other options?

I have no idea whats left to test for as I'm still waiting for the summary I asked for, he said he has pretty much exhausted most things now, there are other tests which are not feasable on such small sizes.
Other options included anti allergy meds to reduce the itching, behaviour modifying drugs, artificial hormones etc. I really really do not want to go down the road of the latter two options and the tests done so far has pretty much ruled out allergies.


Now I have a massive headache over worrying about everything lol. Night all.

[Andromeda]

Looks like my birds will have to stop on this practically inaffective flagyl after all or kick up a fuss and ask the vet what I'm paying him for, consultations, treatments etc but if something has been questioned shouldn't he be looking into it too?

For the record to anyone who suggests panacur, my vet will not touch the stuff for use with birds, he has pretty much backed up my previous research on it.

Panacur seems too scary to give to a bird.

I know for a fact you are very well educated on the efficacy of Flagyl in giardia in birds (~40 - 60%) so personally I would put up a fuss.

Also I have a question about disinfecting everything, bleach apparently is inaffective, the f10 mentions nothing about parasites, I can't find any research on what is effective apart from boiling for 3 minutes, obviously I cannot boil the entire cages so how the heck do I clean the damn things effectively?

Would I be able to soak the perches in mild bleach, scrub, rinse, allow to dry then bake them? I don't see why this wouldn't work as its heat that destroys the cysts apparently and you can bake stuff like fir cones and coconut shells (or cremate them in my case). I was hoping I might be able to do similar with a couple of Harlies toys as she has so few she will actually use and of course they are now discontinued so I cannot buy new.

I'm wondering where you saw bleach was ineffective? The CDC page on giardia (the authority in America on infectious diseases) suggests bleach although this might be wrong?

Baking might be okay; the CDC page suggests steam cleaning (158ºF for 5 minutes or 212ºF for 1 minute) or running the heat cycle in a dishwasher (113ºF for 20 minutes, 122ºF for 5 minutes, or 162ºF for 1 minute) so I don't know why baking wouldn't work?

[Eurycerus]

I don't know much regarding diseases and parasites except baylisascaris, a parasite which is transmitted by raccoon feces so it's problematic when making your own perches or anytime you use natural materials, at least here in California.

Anyway I was informed by professionals around here that bleach does not kill the eggs/cysts but rather loosens the bond so you can better scrub them off. I believe baking is adequate but would want to check that.. I of course found out after I used natural found branches and had to calm myself down... :/ hopefully I did a good job scrubbing.