Not again :(

[Baylee4ever]

Panacur its a comercial name the actual product base is fenbendazole which means albendazole, fenbendazole and robendazole and ronidazole its the same...so i dont know why You say You wont give them panacur but You will give them ronidazole which is very similar... ALL THE PRODUCTS WITH 'DAZOLE' termination are related.... some are stronger than others but its really the same.

Yes baking should work... About the bleach it might work but i dont think it will be good for the birds. Bleach is hard to get off of objects or the floor... Let me check If my book says anything specifically about bleach use to get rid of giardia cysts.

To increase the efficacy of disinfectants solutions should be left for 5-20 mins before Being rinsed off of contaminated surfaces. Cysts are susceptible dessication and the áreas should be allowed to dry throughly after cleaning.

[marie83]

Thanks everyone, I guess I will try baking first because I really really do not want to part Harlie with the only toys she gets any enjoyment from, also I'm not really in a position to buy new toys/perches until next week anyway and I only have a couple of spare perches which is no good for two birds really.

Anyway I was informed by professionals around here that bleach does not kill the eggs/cysts but rather loosens the bond so you can better scrub them off. I believe baking is adequate but would want to check that.. I of course found out after I used natural found branches and had to calm myself down... :/ hopefully I did a good job scrubbing.

Yep, this concerns me as I have used natural branches too and I only soaked them in a mild bleach for an hour, soaked them in fresh water for about the same time, scrubbed them, rinsed them and thoroughly dried them out. I think I may bake any future branches we use too. Trouble is the sources I have checked are about 50/50 as to whether bleach is effective or not and I don't know the source of the giardia originally, if it is indeed that. I suspected it may be our water supply but the research I've seen suggests that they type of giardia that affects birds isn't in our water supplies unless there are droppings in the water, which I guess is a possibility that our water was contaminated somehow. If that was the case then how do I know its not still present and all my cage scrubbing will be a waste of time because its getting re-contaminated when I rinse it?

I know for a fact you are very well educated on the efficacy of Flagyl in giardia in birds (~40 - 60%) so personally I would put up a fuss.

Absolutely, I think he should be looking into it rather than me trying to find the document for him but I understand why he does need to see the work, he cant just prescribe anything his clients ask for after all, particuarly when they don't have any experience of it.

Panacur its a comercial name the actual product base is fenbendazole which means albendazole, fenbendazole and robendazole and ronidazole its the same...so i dont know why You say You wont give them panacur but You will give them ronidazole which is very similar... ALL THE PRODUCTS WITH 'DAZOLE' termination are related.... some are stronger than others but its really the same.

of course the drugs are similar but they are not the same, they all work differently otherwise we would just adjust the dosage in accordance with the problem, they all have side effects of course but again the side effects are different. For me the panacur is known to have a higher death rate than the others and if my vet wont consider using it ya know, it doesn't give me much faith. If you are talking about the merck veterinary manual as your source then I can already tell you it doesn't say anything specifically regarding disinfection (well the book might be more in depth than the online version, I will check at college) but it does talk about treating with the Metronidazole (which is an out of date drug choice for treating giardia as in 2003 it was only 40% effective, down 20% in 2 years!) and in some cases fenbendazole (which also has a low success rate, cant remember the exact figure until I find that damn pdf file again) but it blatently comments on deaths using the latter drug and says its not suitable for all birds and in no case should the treatments should be based on the dosage for other animals which is how dosage by weight is usually worked out.

Now no offence to you, I'm not saying I'm right and you are wrong but I'm basing my decision on reseach from multiple resources (books, repuatable websites and vets), I must have spent at least 20 hours researching giardia alone and thats forgetting my initial research right at the start of all this.

[friend2parrots]

Panacur its a comercial name the actual product base is fenbendazole which means albendazole, fenbendazole and robendazole and ronidazole its the same...so i dont know why You say You wont give them panacur but You will give them ronidazole which is very similar... ALL THE PRODUCTS WITH 'DAZOLE' termination are related.... some are stronger than others but its really the same.

just wanted to point out:

just because drugs share the same ending in their name doesnt mean that they are "the same".

according to the dictionary (Farlex Online), an "azole" is

"A class of organic compounds having a five-membered heterocyclic ring with two double bonds; pyrrole."

in pharmaceutics, an "azole" is:

" One of a family of synthetic broad-spectrum antifungal antibiotics–including ketoconazole, fluconazole, itraconazole Indications Various azoles have established efficacy in treating blastomyocosis, candidiasis, coccidioidomycosis, cryptococcosis, histoplasmosis, paracoccidoidomycosis and sporotrichosis"

so azole is a common ending for drugs based on its chemical structure and antifungal properties, but that doesnt mean that they are necessarily the same.

its just like a lot of diseases have the same ending:

arthritis
cystitis
pancreatitis

"itis" is a suffix ending meaning "inflammation" . as can be seen from the examples, it doesnt mean that all the inflammations are the same

[Eric&Rebecca]

Marie you can always try giving my vet a call. He's pretty good. And being the daughter of a family of nurse I can say not all those medications are the same, in humans and animals alike they are all different. There are many forms of penicillin, amoxicillin, etc but they all work of different things and in this case different animals. Pancur is likely suitable for some animals but not others. Like Phenobarbatol is a treatement for seizures but cannot be used on babies even in small doses as its very scary drug. Its the same with birds (also have someone very close to me studying to be a vet, with avian interest), checked this with him too.

Happy to put you in contact with my vet or his colleague if you want a second opinion.

[marie83]

Marie you can always try giving my vet a call. He's pretty good. And being the daughter of a family of nurse I can say not all those medications are the same, in humans and animals alike they are all different. There are many forms of penicillin, amoxicillin, etc but they all work of different things and in this case different animals. Pancur is likely suitable for some animals but not others. Like Phenobarbatol is a treatement for seizures but cannot be used on babies even in small doses as its very scary drug. Its the same with birds (also have someone very close to me studying to be a vet, with avian interest), checked this with him too.

Happy to put you in contact with my vet or his colleague if you want a second opinion.

Yes please, that would be good. Ill look out for your pm.

[Grey_Moon]

With regards to the giardia:

When I treated Sully I did end up having to toss all of his perches and toys.
Bleach is ineffective though I was told the 'it just loosens it so you can scrub the cysts off' bit too.
I ended up using a quaternary ammonia compound (if I remember right that's what the product was considered)---

This stuff "Mango Pet Focus" http://www.mangopet.com/ProductDetails. ... tCode=1506

I would scrub everything and clean it down with my regular routine first and then put it in the bathtub etc. and soak the cage with the disinfectant (wear gloves and ventilate properly!), leave it on for a bit, then rinse and dry. Daily until his treatment was over.

[Andromeda]

I use Pet Focus to clean my birds' cages and any toys that are non-porous and have been doing so for years.

It's a great product but definitely do as Grey_Moon says and ventilate properly and wear gloves because let me tell you, even when you mix it properly (1 part Pet Focus to 128 parts water) it has a slight odor and burns if you get it on your skin!

[marie83]

Well I've had to contact the vets yet again today, Harlie has shown limited interest in food over the past 2 days but I wasn't 100% sure as my boyfriend did the feeds and although he says he weighed it out I dont know for certain. This morning her breakfast remained completely untouched so I rang the vets at lunchtime when I came back to check on her, they said to try and handfeed her this evening when I got in from work. I've come back and she seems to have eaten something now although not very much.

[Eurycerus]

I always attribute Diggy not eating as him being traumatized. Sometimes he won't eat a full meal or barely picks at it, then a day later eats his meal. Definitely scares the crap out of me. Do you think it's fear or illness causing Harlie to not eat? From what you're written Harlie is a scared little birdie although you know your birds really well so I'm sure you know the difference.

[Andromeda]

Poor Harlie, I'm sorry she's regressed. Is it possible the medication is upsetting her stomach or do you think it's something else?