Not again :(

[marie83]

Well last time she stopped eating she was put on these same meds and she started eating again (same dose) but she was taking the meds alot better. We took her off of the meds and she stopped eating again, as soon a we put her back on them again she started eating again and was fine after the second round up until now.

This time she's gone on the meds and then stopped eating but this time she is terrified of having her meds. Complete contrast in behaviour and occurance of symptoms yet again.

[marie83]

Well my little Harlie girl has gone back to eating a little so I haven't tried to hand feed her yet. She took in about 3g on monday evening and 5g yesterday so I'm hoping today will prove to be normal for her fingers crossed.

[matusgreats]

Looks like my birds will have to stop on this practically inaffective flagyl after all or kick up a fuss and ask the vet what I'm paying him for, consultations, treatments etc but if something has been questioned shouldn't he be looking into it too?

For the record to anyone who suggests panacur, my vet will not touch the stuff for use with birds, he has pretty much backed up my previous research on it.

Panacur seems too scary to give to a bird.

I know for a fact you are very well educated on the efficacy of Flagyl in giardia in birds (~40 - 60%) so personally I would put up a fuss.

Also I have a question about disinfecting everything, bleach apparently is inaffective, the f10 mentions nothing about parasites, I can't find any research on what is effective apart from boiling for 3 minutes, obviously I cannot boil the entire cages so how the heck do I clean the damn things effectively?

Would I be able to soak the perches in mild bleach, scrub, rinse, allow to dry then bake them? I don't see why this wouldn't work as its heat that destroys the cysts apparently and you can bake stuff like fir cones and coconut shells (or cremate them in my case). I was hoping I might be able to do similar with a couple of Harlies toys as she has so few she will actually use and of course they are now discontinued so I cannot buy new.

I'm wondering where you saw bleach was ineffective? The CDC page on giardia (the authority in America on infectious diseases) suggests bleach although this might be wrong?

Baking might be okay; the CDC page suggests steam cleaning (158ºF for 5 minutes or 212ºF for 1 minute) or running the heat cycle in a dishwasher (113ºF for 20 minutes, 122ºF for 5 minutes, or 162ºF for 1 minute) so I don't know why baking wouldn't work?

I am not sure about steam cleaning. In my opinion bleach process should work but what is the reason behind steam cleaning?

[Eric&Rebecca]

Bleach doesn't kill ALL viruses and only 90% bacteria (microbiologist in the family) and for it to be safe for birds you have to water it down a lot or rinse it off the surface so it doesn't protect it from future bacteria regrowth. The only things that do kill viruses are high temperatures (like in steam) and cleaners containing anti viral disinfectant which is benzalkonium chloride. Anything that contains this cannot be used with birds, the only anti viral you can get in UK suitable(as far as I am aware is F10). The only other way is by pressure to remove the virus physically by blasting it off. Steam cleaners kill the virus with high temperatures and then blast it off, much like when you wash your hands. It's not the soap that kills the germs its the temp of the water and the scrubbing action. The soap simply loosens the bacteria.

Personally I would use F10 or some of the other disinfectants which are labelled anti viral. Bacteria and viruses are not the same thing. Steam cleaning is used for medical instruments and sterilization in much the same way without chemicals (family of nurses!) so when they enter the body the chemicals don't harm you. It's the same reason most hand sanitizers are ineffective because it doesn't contain benzalkonium chloride, but this can't be used for birds.

Steam cleaning it also non-toxic, natural method and remove poop easier.

[janetafloat]

Thanks for the explanation. This is all to the good then because I just ordered a steam cleaner!

[Eric&Rebecca]

Bleach isn't a bad thing and most likely will get rid of everything you need to but steam cleaning and f10 are better if you have a sick bird. Just my personal opinion but it depends on what is best for the birds. No one is going to endanger their bird or being doing an effective clean by using bleach (providing its used correctly) but the steam clean and f10 just does that extra 1%.

[marie83]

So much for seeing an improvement, shes had 1g of food since I fed her at 7:30 this morning. I usually manage food with 2 meals a day but leave it in when stuff like this happens but still weigh out the portions. Other than not eating much she seems more or less herself, just a bit quieter.

The vets calling me tonight to talk about meds and has posted some disinfectant out to me which will apparently destroy any cysts if there are any to be killed.
Whens it going to end?

[Eric&Rebecca]

AWWW marie I'm so sorry.

It's good the disinfectant is coming out to you. Maybe the meds are upsetting her tummy. Perhaps try some Harrison's high potency mash. You can add water and use it for sick birds. Viovet.co.uk

[marie83]

Thats the thing, shes been off the meds since monday morning but lasst time she was fine on them and they got her back eating again. Theres no consitancy at all with the symptoms, I really wish there was cuz at least then we might be able to find out whats wrong! ARRRGHHH.
I''ll update late after the vet calls.

Oh btw, we do use the F10 but theres no info on its effectivness against parasites which is what the giardia is but we still dont blummin know that is what they have

[Eric&Rebecca]

We have Johnson's bird safe. Pink spray which is effective against parasites, although it does have a slight scent which bothers me and why I converted to f10. Available on amazon.

f10 also do one in a green spray bottle, that is different i think. Not sure where to get it from though or if its a different formula.