Not again :(

[Eurycerus]

This sounds sooo stressful! Btw when Nika stretches her under wing area looks sort of bald :/ but she never appears to overpreen or be in pain. Mysterious....

[terri]

Sorry to hear about your guys.I think the baby formula does help.Ive been also been putting it in birdie bread.

[marie83]

Quick update because I have to go to work soon but we've been back to the vets today.

Still no diagnosis at the moment but the vets concerned about the number of feathers Harlie is shedding with no sign of any pin feathers. He has examined them under the microscope and he is pretty sure they are just dropping out rather than being pulled out. She had her weight taken which is good and heart rate/breathing which he also says are good.

The vets given me some flagyl to start off with rather than another medication because it has appetite stimulating properties to it but also antibiotic.
Although we are still not sure of anything he has mentioned giardia again and seems to think its a strong possibility now despite the negative results for the last samples as her faeces are starting to become loose.

I've to report back to him after the weekend about the meds and if they are doing any good. If there is no improvement both birds are going back next week for more extensive blood tests and more faecal samples.


From what the vet was saying he is becoming more and more convinced their problems are medical rather than nutritional or behavioural- I just wish he had listened to me from the start then we may be a bit further ahead with getting a diagnosis. Fingers crossed.

[marie83]

Can I swear or scream ?? I'm so frustrated. It was Harlies last day on the Flagyl yesterday, she started the Meds on Friday by Monday her appetite had picked up a little and yesterday she ate loads. This morning she hasn't touched a single thing

Waiting for a call back from the vets again.....

Ollie seems pretty darn good at the moment though, he is eating loads, is bright and sparky and appears to have no more feather loss.

[Grey_Moon]

*Hugs*

I feel you---my first vet gave me the run-around for FIVE YEARS before I by chance got an appointment with my current vet and voila! Sully was diagnosed. But for five years the old one was a pushy, aggressive woman who manhandled my birds 'because they'll be vicious when scared' and no I ran a gram stain--there's no giardia. Gram stains are for bacteria and yeast--not parasites! Ugh.
I also feel your frustration with vets who think you're stupid and they and they alone know what's wrong--again, another reason why there is a note in my guys' files saying they can ONLY be treated by their current vet. I won't work with anyone else or allow them close to my kids, because they manhandle them and treat me like I couldn't possibly have any inkling of what could be wrong.

You could be dealing with loose stools partially because of the underlying problem but also realize that repeated rounds (or long courses) of antibiotics are hard on the body. Anytime Jacko went on antibiotics she got a round of probiotics too (she gets them daily now anyway), so adding some to Harlie's food should help her.
As far as appetite goes, Fenugreek is an appetite stimulant---so you could add some to their food to help them eat. Plus, at this point, adding in hearty warm foods will help them keep weight on---oatmeal with almond milk and peanut butter for example---and it'd be more enticing than pellets.

I'd also get your vet to stop using Flagyl---its a medication that particularly in the case of giardia is proving ineffective as the parasite is becoming resistant---ronidazole is the promising drug for giardia at this point. Repeated rounds of antibiotics are going to be a huge blow to the system, especially if they're for nothing or 'just in case'.
The feather loss without regrowth is worrying but it could simply be a result from skin infection/irritation or systemic stress. I would get your vet to look at their skin, and believe it or not run an x-ray. Areas of dilatation/inflammation in the gut etc do show up on them--and they're less invasive than swabs or biopsies. It would give you a window into whats going on without the need for surgery.

Good luck *hug* I hope you get answers soon.

[Grey_Moon]

Forgot to mention,

In the case of giardia it's (as you know) a pretty nasty bug. Just in case your vet ends up telling you treat your fids I'll run you through what my battle strategy had to be (got rid of it on the second round of ronidazole--first round I was lazy).

1st---you need a good quality disinfectant--bleach won't cut it because the cysts have been found to linger. Plus bleach is deactivated by organic (read poop, feathers, food) matter. I ended up using this stuff (its a quaternary ammonium product) http://www.mangopet.com/ProductDetails. ... tCode=1507. The important thing with giardia is to scrub---disinfectant doesn't have to kill it 100% if you scrub it off and wash it down the drain anyway.

2nd--throw out *EVERYTHING* that is porous and cannot be sterilized (this sucks--I know--I had to toss all of their toys, their perches, their harnesses...) and replace it with new stuff when they start their meds.

3rd---keep them separated. I know its hard but for right now if Ollie is clean and Harlie is sick it'd be best to keep them apart.

4th---and this is the biggie! Daily cage disinfecting---scrub it everywhere.

5th---I don't know if your birds have water bottles but if they don't I would invest because it helps to keep poop out of their water and it also keeps the water cleaner so thereby reduces the stress on their guts (stressed guts are easy for the parasite to cling to so to speak--a stronger immune system will help especially in eliminating the parasite with the help of meds).

6th---when they're done treatment take them both in for testing.

Good luck

[marie83]

Grey moon,

Thank you so much for the detailed reply.

I must admit I like this vet as he is very open to thoughts and opinions, I have alot of respect for him as the previous avian vet didn't handle the birds well and didn't care about my opinions. He ran the tests for crypto and giardia on my request as he thought it was unlikely. It seemed he had been proven correct as the tests came back negative but I know the tests aren't 100% accurate. He has made it quite clear to me he wont give anything like antibiotics unless he is convinced they are needed.
I've scrubbed and disinfected all toys, cages, perches etc and thrown a few things away to try to prevent reinfestation IF it is giardia, I've put them on bottled water until I can buy a water filter with small enough filters. It may seem extreme but I'm starting to distrust tap water more and more as time goes by. I've heard the ronidazole is much better at shifting giardia but the vet wanted to try the flagyl first as it has appetite stimulating properties and he felt getting her eating was more important at this moment in time which I couldn't really argue with tbh.

Only Ollie has been on any antibiotics, he came off them in January and he got probiotics afterwards. I think I'm going to get a fresh batch and start again with them anyway, I'm not sure how much good they do but I know it cannot hurt to try.

I have no idea what fenugreek is so I'll give it a google. I hear what your saying about the food I'm offering, Ollie will accept pretty much anything but Harlie has an aversion so anything that isn't pellets or seeds. I'm suprised I managed to get her onto pellets because in 5 years I've tried all sorts to get her eating fresh but she would literally sooner starve I've never had such a difficult bird and she is the first one I've failed to get eating fresh, she wont even touch soaked seeds. Doesn't stop me trying though.

Ollies skin is in pretty good condition, the vet commented last time that Harlie had alot of scurf but there was no sign of any sores, inflammation, mites etc. Ollie has been x-rayed and nothing has shown up. I think the vets going to get Harlie done too when she goes in for her bloods, he is going to try to do as much as he can whilst she is under, whilst keeping the anasthetic time as short as he can, to avoid repeated trips as she gets so stressed out.

Thanks for the hug, well needed I tell you lol.

[marie83]

Forgot to mention,

In the case of giardia it's (as you know) a pretty nasty bug. Just in case your vet ends up telling you treat your fids I'll run you through what my battle strategy had to be (got rid of it on the second round of ronidazole--first round I was lazy).

1st---you need a good quality disinfectant--bleach won't cut it because the cysts have been found to linger. Plus bleach is deactivated by organic (read poop, feathers, food) matter. I ended up using this stuff (its a quaternary ammonium product) http://www.mangopet.com/ProductDetails. ... tCode=1507. The important thing with giardia is to scrub---disinfectant doesn't have to kill it 100% if you scrub it off and wash it down the drain anyway.

2nd--throw out *EVERYTHING* that is porous and cannot be sterilized (this sucks--I know--I had to toss all of their toys, their perches, their harnesses...) and replace it with new stuff when they start their meds.

3rd---keep them separated. I know its hard but for right now if Ollie is clean and Harlie is sick it'd be best to keep them apart.

4th---and this is the biggie! Daily cage disinfecting---scrub it everywhere.

5th---I don't know if your birds have water bottles but if they don't I would invest because it helps to keep poop out of their water and it also keeps the water cleaner so thereby reduces the stress on their guts (stressed guts are easy for the parasite to cling to so to speak--a stronger immune system will help especially in eliminating the parasite with the help of meds).

6th---when they're done treatment take them both in for testing.

Good luck

Sorry saw all this after i replied to the first mesage.

I soaked everything in F10 for ages (an hour and a half) then scrubbed down with a new nail brush.
not sure if the F10 is any good really but it seems highly recommended.

I believe whatever is wrong with them is wrong with both of them already rather than two seperate illnesses. I would have seperated them into different rooms but they both started showing noticable symptoms at the same time (the agressive preening).

They have water dispensers opposed to bowls or bottles. I didn't like the bottles so I chose the middle ground. I may well reconsider that. I shall definitely disinfect the cages daily- and the travel cages, when used.

Thank you so much

[Polarn]

I just have to add. I'm a freak when it comes to disinfecting items etc for the critters as an example I only use stainless steel for their dishes and bowls to be able to put them in the autoclave every once In a while. Usually a couple of times each week. I do know however most people doesn't own an autoclave since it is medical equipment but I still have mine from running a tattoo shop. I also know its probably silly since I can't autoclave all toys etc, but I can autoclave metal wich means I run bells, chains, etc through. But I know I'm silly to the point I'm almost compulsive especially items used for cooking or eating off. I do my dishes 3 times before I'm willing to use a plate again.... However I'm not picky how other people's do theirs for some reason. .. If I were to suspect illness contained within toys etc. geez I would go bananas

[marie83]

And yet another update. The vet called and I told him what had happened the past few days.
He is happy that Harlie had improved over the past few days and wishes to keep her on the flagyl for a while longer because of it being antibiotic and an appetite stimulant rather than because he is treating for giardia. He said he doesn't want to put her under anasthetic unless absolutely necessary and because it seems to be helping it is better to cover this base first.

Well in a way I do agree, I don't want her to undergo test which aren't needed but on the other hand I want to know what is wrong and I don't want her to be on antibiotics for the hell of it either. I know I can't have it both ways so I will continue with the antibiotics because they appear to be helping and speak to the vet again next week unless I need to sooner.

Thing is Ollie seemed better after the baytril but now we are in the same boat again.