Zupreem or Roudybush?

[Michael]

You hardly see healthy looking people in America, without always sucking down sodas and coffee to keep them going, and so many of them pale and overweight!

Have you ever been to America? Doesn't sound like you have a clue what you are talking about!

On second thought, I was out of line even giving you the benefit of the doubt. You haven't been to the US and you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Just cause they make people look a certain way for the movies or in the news doesn't mean anything. Regardless, this isn't something worth going into.

Organic food is not necessarily safer or healthier. Sometimes the organic stuff spoils more in transit and in fact delivers less nutrition than something that may have been processed or frozen. Just because in theory, in a perfect world, or in the past something was better, doesn't mean it applies the same way in current times. There is a reason why most food is not "organic" and that has to do with civilization and modern society.

I personally love Harrison's. Nika looks fabulous and it keeps her active. It's more money than I'd like to spend but the large bag does last a while.

Now this may pose a problem and one of the biggest reasons I avoid going organic for parrots. We've had this discussion elsewhere before, but I just wanted to reiterate that organic is prone to sooner spoilage. At first it is a deterioration of nutrients and value (so after some time and I bet a short amount of it, the organic presents no better nutritional value than the regular) and in time it can actually be outright toxic and dangerous. I have heard of parrots getting sick on spoiled harrisons. I think with pellets it is much harder to tell than on fruits. Since parrots are so sensitive, the risk of feeding expired food and particularly organic must be taken very seriously.

[Eurycerus]

organic is prone to sooner spoilage.

This is true! I was warned and I freeze the large bag and take out enough for a few days. I also smell it, but I do have a much better sniffer than other people. :] However, thanks for the reminder. I will be extra safe!

I use it because she is used to that pellet and I like the lack of artificial color and flavoring. I'm sure there're other options, but I don't particularly like preservatives either. Not that I'm super anal about it for myself, but a much smaller creature might experience a more significant adverse affect.

Edit: I quoted too much, I meant only that it does spoil if not frozen

[Dasphatness]

***DON'T DO THAT!!!!!! Unless a vet specifically said your bird is malnourished and that you must supplement its diet, what you are doing could actually harm/kill your bird!!! A pellet diet is already balanced and safe. Supplementing the water with vitamins makes the water spoil quicker and potentially become toxic. But worse yet it can also overdose your parrot on vitamins and cause kidney failure.***

-In the trash, thank you for that heads up!

[marie83]

Organic food is not necessarily safer or healthier. Sometimes the organic stuff spoils more in transit and in fact delivers less nutrition than something that may have been processed or frozen. Just because in theory, in a perfect world, or in the past something was better, doesn't mean it applies the same way in current times. There is a reason why most food is not "organic" and that has to do with civilization and modern society.

Actually I disagee to a point with your last sentance, the main reason is profability. They want their foods to last longer to prevent as much wastage so they have longer to sell it.

Organic foods have a shorter date stamp for a reason, from the research I did last time this subject came up the arguments about freezing/not freezing, safety and nutritional values is pretty much rubbish as far as I can tell, provided it is used by the date stamp, opening it once to divide it into portions prior to freezing wont make any real difference provided its done quickly. As I said before though it if anyone has any research to say otherwise, point me in the right direction as I would like to read it.

I do agree with the rest of the posts though, I think some of the remarks made were inappropriate but would like to think they weren't intended to read in quite the manner they were.

[Eurycerus]

It sounds like there's some confusion regarding organic food vs not, and unprocessed food vs processed. I'm not saying that I personally buy all organic or make everything from scratch, primarily because of the price and time, but there's something to be said for being careful about processed food and food that is not organic.

Just to clear a couple things up.

Organic Products
Even if the product says organic but hasn't been certified, then it's not. For information regarding organic certification and what it means in the USA: http://www.usda.gov/wps/portal/usda/usd ... RTIFICATIO
To be organic in the USA synthetic fertilizers, sewage sludge, irradiation, and genetic engineering may not be used. There is a list of the pesticides, insecticides, rodenticides, and herbicides that can be used which exclude the dangerous ones. I've read the entire list before (for my work) and there is very in depth information regarding the use of the pesticides and the studies to back up why specific pesticides can or can't be used. Purchasing organic vegetables and fruits for your parrots is probably a good idea. You can also look up which veggies and fruits uptake pesticides more than others and avoid buying the ones that have a high uptake of pesticides. The impact on chemicals on such a small animal I think could be far more dramatic than on an adult human. I found this list of veggies and fruits that uptake pesticides more readily and should be avoided or purchased organically to avoid the chemicals (from the USDA consumer reports, I believe this is the source: http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile ... rdc5102692, there's some fascinating statistics in there too. Also a note, this information was extracted from the document by a third party, but you can read the whole document):

Nectarines – 97.3% of nectarines sampled were found to contain pesticides.
Celery – 94.5% of celery sampled were found to contain pesticides.
Pears – 94.4% of pears sampled were found to contain pesticides.
Peaches – 93.7% of peaches sampled were found to contain pesticides.
Apples – 91% of apples sampled were found to contain pesticides.
Cherries – 91% of cherries sampled were found to contain pesticides.
Strawberries – 90% of strawberries sampled were found to contain pesticides.
Imported Grapes – 86% of imported grapes (i.e. Chile) sampled were found to contain pesticides.
Spinach – 83.4% of spinach sampled were found to contain pesticides.
Potatoes – 79.3% of potatoes sampled were found to contain pesticides.
Bell Peppers – 68% of bell peppers sampled were found to contain pesticides.
Red Raspberries – 59% of red raspberries sampled were found to contain pesticides.

Conversely, the following are the least likely, of the food tested, to contain pesticides:

Asparagus
Avocados
Bananas
Broccoli
Cauliflower
Corn (However, almost all corn is genetically modified)
Kiwi
Mangoes
Onions
Papaya
Pineapples
Sweet Peas

Processed Products
Unprocessed vs processed food is not necessarily related to the organic food debate. You can get unprocessed not organic food. Also, processed does not mean bad! It just means it's not the raw food, like a raw almond from the tree, raw wheat, or a raw apple. Pellets of all kinds of processed, and that's all there is to it. You can choose to do an all natural diet, which is fine but presumably the companies have done a lot more research than you have time to do on your own. Maybe not though. It seems to me the issues with processed food isn't that it's been processed but what happens during some of the processing. Chemicals that are harmful can be added. Nutrients that are important and were a part of that particular food item may be removed during a mechanical, chemical, heating, or cooling process that takes place during the processing. In addition, certain processed items that we buy have far more salt or sugar in it than if we made the particular item our self. This is the case with most canned goods or frozen foods (canned soup, canned veggies/fruit, frozen dinners, etc). This can be problematic for health reasons. We eat as much as we would eat if it were raw or fresh (think canned peaches) but the sugar content is through the roof. Same with salt. I want to look up some additional sources but I found this that might have some interesting information on processed food: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healt ... or-us.html

[GlassOnion]

Urg, I lost my password to this site and never got around to resetting it until now!

I personally do like Roudybush and to an extent, Zupreem Natural (not fruity) because both companies have conducted extensive research for at least several decades. My favourite pellet is Goldenfeast Goldn'Obles, because well, they are not really *pellets* in the conventional sense, they are real foods rationed and shaped into pellet forms.
http://www.mysafebirdstore.com/GOLDENFE ... POUND.html

Look at the ingredients:
Quinoa, organic roasted Soybeans, par boiled brown Rice & Organic long grain brown Rice, raw Almonds, dehydrated and freeze dried vegetables composed of Carrots, sweet garden Peas, Parsley, green Beans, Spinach, Beets-non sugar beet variety and Cabbage. Cranberries, shelled Walnuts, natural organic Agavi sweetener, organic Barley, organic Alfafa, freeze dried Banana powder, organic hulled proso Millet & white proso Millet, organic Flax seed, organic Spelt, organic Rye, Sesame seed, Domestic grown Apples, dehydrated Honey, organic Chia seed, organic Kamut, organic Tricale, organic Amaranth, stabilized hulled Oats, Sunflower Kernels, organic Spinach, Fenugreek, freeze dried Raspberries, Hemp seed, organic Timothy, Ginger, Garlic, Star Anise seed, Cinnamon, Fennel seed, Acidopholus, dehydrated whole Eggs, Bee Pollen, Wheatberries, organic Echinacea powder, Cilantro, organic Red Clover Leaf powder & organic Spinach, dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus casei fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus plantarum fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus fermentum fermentation product, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product, and dried Bifidobacterium.

I keep my Goldn'Obles in the freezer and grab a few days worth as needed. This way, the nutrients stay intact and I don't worry about any sort of spoilage.

I would be okay if my parrots had Goldn'obles as the majority of their diet; however, I do not agree with feeding more than 50% of overall diet with EITHER Roudybush or Zupreem because cmon... it's all corn, soy and wheat with synthetic vitamins. I really do not feel that anyone should be eating that much corn, soy and wheat regardless of how they are processed and/or preserved.
That being said, I do think that a good base of under 50% of overall diet is a safe bet, with the remaining 50% to be a mix of various grains, sprouts, veggies and fruits. There are phytonutrients found in *live* foods that cannot be found in pellets, and I feel that a VARIETY of nutrient-dense foods is the key to good nutrition.

Another pellet line worth looking into is Higgins InTune.
http://www.mysafebirdstore.com/HIGGINS- ... LK_lb.html

The pellets are colored with vegetables (no food dye), and brown rice is the second ingredient, which I like. My cockatiels love this food and I mix it with a variety of pellets like Roudybush and Goldn'Obles.

[Strawfrawg]

My avian vet is dead set against Harrison's because of the spoilage concerns. I wouldn't say organic is any better than a well-researched food with preservatives for the reason that plenty of healthy and long-lived brids suffer no apparent consequences for eating them. I would rather be certain that my bird's food isn't spoiled...that to me would pose a much greater health risk.

As for the talk about the American diet, there is evidence that a lot of the tampering in our food supply has had negative effects...the dramatic rise in celiac disease has been tied to GMOs, the rise in pancreatic cancer has been linked to preservatives in processed meats and junk food, and certain preservatives have a positive correlation with negative effects on the development of male fetuses. Until recently I worked in a university cancer research laboratory and I have read more than I would like to about this sort of thing. That having been said, the comments that started this discussion seemed to blame the American public more than the chemicals. Low blow there, and not a wise generalization. I've spent a lot of time in England and saw the same long lines at every Starbucks and McDonald's.

[marie83]

I've copied and pasted what I put on the last thread about freezing organic foods.
As long as correct storage procedures are followed a bag of harrisons is no more likely to spoil than a bag of roudybush I wouldn't have thought, the roudybush is just as likely to spoil in incorrect conditions (eg exposure to air from a damaged bag) as the organic stuff. As long as foods are within date and stored properly all should be ok.

Anyway heres the bit on freezing:

Right, I have done a little research on the frozen foods issue. My research has been done on foods in general rather than more specicically parrot food. I also haven't had time to go deeply into any scientific papers as yet, so make of this what you will, however this is what the FFF have to say about frozen foods and my personal take on the information.

-As long as foods are consistantly stored at temperatures below -18 degrees celcius they will remain safe to eat indefinitely. So basicly as long as you keep it frozen until needed you shouldn't have anything to worry about as long as it is used within a few hours. Foods will not just suddenly spoil the minute it is taken out the freezer, keeping it chilled will slow the spoilage process down and the fact pellets are under 10% moisture will slow it down even further. Bacteria needs 3 main componants to thrive- oxygen, warmth and moisture. Ypu can remove the 3rd element, oxygen, with removers if your so inclined but be aware you 100% need to know how to use these properly.

-Freezing is by far the safest way to preserve food, assuming the temperatures dont rise above -18c.

-You can expect frozen foods to remain at peak quality up to the best before date on the packet, organic foods already take food degradation into account by stamping them with a shorter shelf life. After this point assuming correct storage procedures are followed the food will still be safe to eat but may have a decreased eating quality.

- Freezing foods and then storing them at temperatures of -18°C or lower slows the natural degradation process practically to zero. So there will be some nutrient loss but its not worth losing sleep over if the food is still in date.

[marie83]

Scotty you may wish to rethink your generalisations as well if your going for the obesity spin on things too.

[Strawfrawg]

That's useful info about freezing, Marie. Thanks for laying all that out for us. I'll pass it along to my vet for bird parents who prefer organic. Even if my vet remains averse to organic food himself, at least he'll have good info for those who want it.