Harlies new cage

[marie83]

We had to change Harlies cage over, it's no bigger than her last one sadly, I'm still not confident enough in her confidence to put her in the really big one. Well its a tiny bit bigger but the dimensions are different and this one has dark bars, her previous cage was white.

I accidently broke the door beyond repair on her old cage when the rabbit tripped me up lol, well it was funny initially but Harlie really isn't settling into her new cage very well at all, she's just climbing round and round and round, stopping occasionally to eat or drink, she hasn't napped at all today. It's been dark for 4 hours now and I can still hear her climbing about. Hopefully she will calm down quickly because I can't find the same cage or even a similar one to her old one.

[Wolf]

They really aren't big on change and she is a bit frightened by the unfamiliarity of this new cage, the color is probably the major difference as next to a bird we are practically color blind, and have no idea as to what she is actually seeing. I do think that it will be alright and that if you just be patient that she will calm down .

[marie83]

The cage has been in our living room for a while and she's been happily perching on top of it, just doesn't like the inside of it lol. I've laid the perches and toys out almost exactly how they were in her previous cage, apart from the dark bars the only real change is the position of her water dispenser because of how the cage bars are.

she's still visibly stressed but has calmed down loads since yesterday morning, the climbing relentlessly has reduced. Such a contrast to Ollie who would be happy to live anywhere with no trouble at all. I really do think socialising them to change when they are young is the best thing to do although I know others on here don't agree. I can't remember where you stand on that one wolf.

[Wolf]

I really can't say where I stand on this as I think that it depends on the individual bird as well as on the circumstances at the time. There are schools of thought on both sides with some very good points to their credit. I find that when I understand the circumstances and the personality traits of a given bird that I am dead set against it for some of them and 100% for it with others. So I can't honestly pick a side on this. To me both sides are right and both sides are wrong. I would like to think that I am on which ever side would be the most natural and comfortable for the bird in question. Honestly that is the best I can offer at this time.

[Pajarita]

My problem with socializing them when they are babies/juveniles is that it never happens in nature and we have absolutely no long-term proof that it's beneficial for them (my two main criteria for recommending anything). It's just an unproven theory still at this point in time and, although it sounds right to us, this might very well be because it's the way we raise our children and other pet mammals (dogs, cats, etc) so, as far as I am concerned, I will continue doing what has worked for me for many years and leave the experimenting to others. But, if down the road, say, 10 or 15 years from now, the parrots that were socialized when still not adults are all doing fine (no signs of undue stress in any way), then I will definitely recommend it but only for certain species.

[marie83]

My problem with socializing them when they are babies/juveniles is that it never happens in nature and we have absolutely no long-term proof that it's beneficial for them (my two main criteria for recommending anything). It's just an unproven theory still at this point in time and, although it sounds right to us, this might very well be because it's the way we raise our children and other pet mammals (dogs, cats, etc) so, as far as I am concerned, I will continue doing what has worked for me for many years and leave the experimenting to others. But, if down the road, say, 10 or 15 years from now, the parrots that were socialized when still not adults are all doing fine (no signs of undue stress in any way), then I will definitely recommend it but only for certain species.

Bolded bit in my opinion is rubbish, as soon as they are poking their heads out the nest they are constantly exposed to new things. It's all about how you go about it IMO. Ok I cant speak for larger species but Harlie has been my only un-socialized bird or in fact not just bird, any species I've had and she really cannot handle anything new. All others fine, not scared of much at all, I could swap their cages/toys around no problem, put them in carriers, introduce novel people, noises etc. all fine. She did have an abusive past though so I haven't been able to work with her as much as I would have liked and I do have to take that into account that she is more nervous than most anyway....

[liz]

I must have very unusual Amazons. Rambo has always been social with women and has been coming out to visit when a man comes in. You all know how Myrtle came to me. She is so social that she lands beside women and talks to them. If a man comes in she lands on him and scares him half to death.
I used to have a sign on the door watch out for flying Myrtle because I was afraid she would fly out. I may have to put it back to warn people that she is on the loose.
Both love noise and change. They even get excited when I give them a new toy or card board box.
This winter I have moved the cockatiel cages to different rooms according to temperature. They don't care.

[Pajarita]

My problem with socializing them when they are babies/juveniles is that it never happens in nature and we have absolutely no long-term proof that it's beneficial for them (my two main criteria for recommending anything). It's just an unproven theory still at this point in time and, although it sounds right to us, this might very well be because it's the way we raise our children and other pet mammals (dogs, cats, etc) so, as far as I am concerned, I will continue doing what has worked for me for many years and leave the experimenting to others. But, if down the road, say, 10 or 15 years from now, the parrots that were socialized when still not adults are all doing fine (no signs of undue stress in any way), then I will definitely recommend it but only for certain species.

Bolded bit in my opinion is rubbish, as soon as they are poking their heads out the nest they are constantly exposed to new things. It's all about how you go about it IMO. Ok I cant speak for larger species but Harlie has been my only un-socialized bird or in fact not just bird, any species I've had and she really cannot handle anything new. All others fine, not scared of much at all, I could swap their cages/toys around no problem, put them in carriers, introduce novel people, noises etc. all fine. She did have an abusive past though so I haven't been able to work with her as much as I would have liked and I do have to take that into account that she is more nervous than most anyway....

No, actually, it's not rubbish, Marie. For one thing, we take them out of their nest way before it happens in the wild. I only have experience with cockatiels, lovebirds and budgies because these are the only species that, at one time or another, have had eggcidents in the birdroom and the babies stayed inside the nest until they were three months old while breeders wean and sell them way before they are this old. Then, when they first come out, they don't really go anywhere, they come out of the cavity but stay perched or take very short practice flights and always come back to the nest area (they are still been fed by the parents and they don't really leave their side unless the parents go out to get food when the babies stay behind). But even adults don't really venture anywhere by themselves. In nature, you never see a parrot on its own, there are always at least two of them and, if you pay attention, you see and hear the rest of the flock. And it's a known fact that they don't go outside their territory, something that worries environmentalists, ornithologists and biologists, because not having the capacity to 'explore' new places, they die when their territory can no longer support them and that's why they calculate that almost all tropical and semi-tropical bird species will become extinct with global warming.

When we talk about socializing a little baby bird, people usually mean exposing the baby or juvenile to strange places and people so as to 'get him used' to it - but this never, ever, ever happens in nature.

As to their needing socialization not to be scared of new toys, new cages, etc, I don't agree. My birds never go out and hardly ever see anybody but me but I can move things around, take cages out, put cages in, even move from one house to another (7 times in the 20+ years I've been keeping parrots) and they don't even blink so it's not early socialization that does it.

[marie83]

Yes home breeders and those who breed for profit do take them too young, cant argue with that however the ones that were bred at the farm left the nests of their own accord earlier than the 12 weeks you mention so I don't think it's that clear cut. You cant argue with the fact there is always something new even in their immediate environment, maybe once they have reached adulthood they will have experienced everything that their environment has to offer, maybe before that but most definitely in the first few months everything is new to them, they will learn how to react to stuff from the adult flock members. You have a massive flock whereas most "pet" owners do not so they have very few influences on how to react to certain things, perhaps this could be a reason why you haven't needed to introduce changes more carefully, the fact they don't go outside their territory is irrelevant because "most" pet birds don't either whether that be just the one room, the house and the garden or a slight extension of that, a birds territory is many miles in the wild.

[Pajarita]

I can only tell you what I, myself, have seen in my birdroom. I don't know anything about this 'farm', its practices or whether they are telling the truth or not but, without making any judgments and based on my personal experience, people who sell a product don't always tell you the truth about it.

As to exposure to new things, yes, of course that they are exposed to new things when they are babies but the new things they are exposed to are their parents and flock (which they have imprinted to when they were still in the nest) and a small area of their territory which, by the way, doesn't really have to be miles and miles, it all depends on whether they can find food nearby or not. As they get older and start foraging by themselves, this area they are familiar with expands but they are always surrounded (and made safe by) their flock and they are never forced to do anything they don't feel comfortable with. A completely different experience from a little baby that was taken from its parents, made to imprint to an alien species, sent to live with still another alien before they would have left the nest in the wild and then, when they have hardly had enough time to get used to their new environment/home taken regularly to a completely unfamiliar place with strange people, strange noises and strange smells.
Imagine a human baby taken from his parents when only a few months old and raised by a giant alien, then given to another giant alien and made to eat solid food and no milk whatsoever at, say, 6 months of age and, taken regularly outside to be in a completely unfamiliar and scary place. Do you think that this baby is going to grow up perfectly adjusted and without any lingering emotional problems?