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Critique My Setup (New Poi Owner)

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Re: Critique My Setup (New Poi Owner)

Postby Pajarita » Sun Nov 23, 2014 11:11 am

Yes, Wolf is 100% correct. Let me elaborate a bit further so you can understand the mechanics of it. A bird endocrine system is photoperiodic, as Wolf said, and that means that their body registers the time difference between seasons - this is done so very exactly that tropical birds (and all other birds) are able to register a difference of a mere 20 minutes (which is the difference in the tropics -it's not 12 hours of light and 12 hours of darkness, it's 11:40 hours of light and 12:20 hours of dark or 12:20 of light and 11:40 of darkness). BUT their main breeding trigger is food availability instead of the length of dayhours so they only breed when food is abundant (usually at the beginning of the dry season when everything sprouts after the rainy season -which also has weather not propitious for breeding). The problem with this is that, in captivity, the weather is always good and the food is always rich and plentiful so, if you keep a parrot at 12 hours of light and 12 of dark, the parrot will produce sexual hormones all year round, year after year after year. Thankfully, all tropical birds revert to photoperiodism as their main trigger when exposed to longer differences which is great for us, parrot keepers, because producing sexual hormones all the time is something that 1) never happens in Nature (birds have a 'resting' season when they don't breed) and 2) creates physical problems because Nature made it so birds sexual organs are dormant and small during the resting season until the breeding trigger acts and they start producing sexual hormones which make their gonads (sexual organs) active and large. When you keep a bird producing sexual hormones without rest, these organs can become hugely enlarged, pushing other organs from their rightful place and causing chronic pain.

Now, in order for a bird to mark the time when the day starts and ends (so the body can determine whether it's time to produce sexual hormones or not), it needs to be exposed to dawn and dusk because it's the change in light spectrum that turns the 'clock' on and off. And that's why exposing the bird to 12 hours of dark and 12 of light all year round is bad and why you can't just arbitrarily choose the time the parrot wakes up or goes to bed. You need to follow the sun.
Pajarita
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Re: Critique My Setup (New Poi Owner)

Postby Grraarrgghh » Sun Nov 23, 2014 1:27 pm

If that's the case, then how do people who aren't available to spend time with the bird during daylight hours raise a happy, socialized bird? I find it hard to believe that the only persons capable of successfully keeping a bird are those who work odd hours/don't have jobs/work from home (and in fact, have met those who have).

Am I just supposed to see my bird 1 hour a day during Nov-Jan during weekdays/days I don't work from home?

I suppose the ultimate question then is, is it more harmful for the bird to be poorly socialized or for it to be off of the sunrise/sunset schedule during the winter?
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Re: Critique My Setup (New Poi Owner)

Postby Wolf » Sun Nov 23, 2014 2:53 pm

The sad truth of the matter is that they don't have happy, healthy birds, despite the appearances to the contrary. It takes under most circumstances a few years for the gonads to enlarge enough to cause the bird to be in severe enough pain for a human to notice what is going on and even then they usually don't attribute their birds sudden aggressiveness or screaming to its true cause and end up getting rid of the bird because of the aggressiveness or because of the screaming.
Unfortunate as this is, there is a way to help with this although it is not as good as the right way, and it takes a lot more effort on your part. It is through the use of full spectrum lights made specifically for birds, the ones that are used for reptiles will not work and could easily cause your bird to go blind. The correct bulb has a CRI of 94+ with a K temp of 5000to 5500. But to use them you will have to slowly increase the brightness over a period of at least 30 minutes until the light is fully on and then dim it over the same period of time in the evening. These bulbs also need to be changed out every 6 months. You will need to combine this with a decrease in protein for part of the year. This decrease in protein must coincide with the breeding cycles of the bird. Pajarita can probably do a better job of describing the timing of all of this better than I can as she has been at this for a much longer time than I have.
Although this is not the best way it does work, we have some member who live close enough to the arctic circle that they have to use this method. So take heart as this can be done.
Wolf
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Re: Critique My Setup (New Poi Owner)

Postby Elaihr » Mon Nov 24, 2014 4:00 am

Regarding the solar light schedule:

If you live in a place where a solar light schedule means there's a somewhat equal balance between day and night, I agree with Wolf that you should try to have your bird on a solar light schedule. However, if you live in a place where daytime is only a tiny, tiny part of the whole day, I recommend you get some good full spectrum lights, UV-lights and then put them on a timer that keeps them on for an amount of time that sort of imitates how the sun would shine a bit closer to the equator.

For example, I live in Sweden where we currently have daylight between 9am and 3pm. And, the days are going to get even shorter. If I kept my birds on a solar light schedule during winter, they'd basically never be awake, as their days would be around 5 hours long, mid-winter. I did not know about these problems before I got my birds, and I've now realised that it's probably better for the birds not to be kept as companions this far up north. Then again, Sweden has very good laws regarding bird keeping in general, so I guess we're trying to make up for it... Anyway, if you live this far up north I think the only thing you can do is provide good full spectrum lights and UV-lights to imitate the sun, use a timer to not stress the bird with the sun rising and going down irregularly, and then get some lights that can be used during dusk and dawn, to imitate sunrise and sunset. It's far from perfect (the reason is probably quite obvious, we can never imitate the sun perfectly) but IF you live up here (or down there, for that matter, I reckon the situation would be similar in let's say, southern NZ?) I suppose it's the best you can do. It's not optimal, but it's way better than doing nothing at all.

However, whichever strategy you choose (depending on where you live), remember that it's important to stick to your routines. Birds are creatures of habit (and so are we) and might therefore get stressed if you change their routines around too much. Keeping birds is in many regards similar to having children, even if they'd want to stay up with you until 1am, you have to "put them to bed" earlier, as they need more sleep than you do (plus it's not natural for them to stay awake during the night). No matter how much you wanna hang out with your bird, do him/her a favor and let them sleep. I believe sleep has been shown to play an important role in their health, just like it does in humans. But perhaps it's even more important with birds.
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Elaihr
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Re: Critique My Setup (New Poi Owner)

Postby Wolf » Mon Nov 24, 2014 7:53 am

That is exactly what I was saying in my last post concerning the full spectrum lighting. Since, Elaihr, has been kind enough to respond to this perhaps she would be kind enough to go into detail about the setup that she uses, as I must speak about this only through my research and she has actual experience to share with up on this topic. I know that I would love to hear more from her.

Also could you please give us a general location for where you live, I understand that your needs in this are because you must work outside the home and that makes it difficult to have time for interaction with your bird and that is why I suggested the full spectrum lighting.
Wolf
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Flight: Yes

Re: Critique My Setup (New Poi Owner)

Postby marie83 » Mon Nov 24, 2014 8:44 am

I'm in the UK and wintertime is difficult to give the birds enough time if I keep them on 100% solar schedule. I've chosen to compromise a bit and I have them on a fully natural light cycle throughout the summer. As the seasons change I gradually change them on to artificial light and recreate the sunset and sunrise with timed dimmer switches. -this isn't ideal so I don't go mad with it, I make sure there is still a stark contrast between summer and winter daylight hours and I change it very slightly day by day which is a complete pain in the neck.

I haven't perfected it yet, it may not even work long term but I figured it's worth trying in order to give them the benefits of human company whilst hopefully keeping the benefits of a solar cycle because at the end of the day unless your living close to your species natural environment and the birds are outside anyway there's no way you can completely replicate nature.

Like I said though I'm still trying it out, last year was the first year I did it and I messed it up a little with my timings. I've adjusted it a bit this year so hopefully it will work better
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marie83
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Re: Critique My Setup (New Poi Owner)

Postby liz » Mon Nov 24, 2014 8:54 am

We have full daylight between 7 am and 5 pm with dawn and dusk added to that. I am being told that the hours are too long. I purchased the lights to give them proper lighting but then I have had to shade the windows (it is called a sun room). So I am in a situation that I have to give them the right kind of light and block out natural solar light.
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Re: Critique My Setup (New Poi Owner)

Postby Pajarita » Mon Nov 24, 2014 12:49 pm

Grraarrgghh wrote:If that's the case, then how do people who aren't available to spend time with the bird during daylight hours raise a happy, socialized bird? I find it hard to believe that the only persons capable of successfully keeping a bird are those who work odd hours/don't have jobs/work from home (and in fact, have met those who have).

Am I just supposed to see my bird 1 hour a day during Nov-Jan during weekdays/days I don't work from home?

I suppose the ultimate question then is, is it more harmful for the bird to be poorly socialized or for it to be off of the sunrise/sunset schedule during the winter?



The truth of the matter is that parrots don't belong in human homes. They are undomesticated animals with identical physical and psychological needs as their wild counterparts and it's almost impossible to fulfill all of them when you keep them as pets.

People will tell you that their 4, 5, 6, 8 year old bird is healthy and happy but not even avian vets can tell if a parrot is really 100% healthy even if all of them ran all the tests needed for it (which they usually don't) because we don't know enough about birds. Not yet, anyway. As to happy... well, I always remember a paper written by an avian vet on necropsies and he said that their internal organs looked as if they had been 'besieged' by stress all their lives - BESIEGED! imagine that!. This really stuck in my brain because I found it unbelievable that parrots that were well loved could show that HUGE amount of chronic stress. But they did. Why? Because, contrary to what most people would tell you, love doesn't trump good husbandry! And you really cannot go by what people tell you or what you see in a young bird... I know of a lady who had had this bird (a caique) for 7 years, and, according to her, she loved the bird to pieces, the bird loved her back and both were deliriously happy. She gave advice on birdsites and sold parrot toys and was well regarded and liked. One day, when the bird was almost 8, she started plucking, then she started self-mutilating. To make a story short, the woman first doped the bird with drugs (on the advice of her 'good' avian vet!) and, finally, euthanized her after she went and adopted another one just like her but in full plumage because 'she couldn't stand seeing her suffer' - she did not even consider rehoming to somebody who would have been willing to, at least, give it the old college try (I was absolutely FURIOUS, needless to say, with her arrogance and cold heartedness!). And I know a lady in Toronto who had a macaw for ten years on a bad light schedule, going with her to school so her students could interact with her, etc (which I insist is stressful to them - plus her and her husband also took vacations twice a year). The bird danced, talked, wore little hats in the million pictures she posted of her, etc. All of a sudden, the bird became a chronic plucker bald and the lady couldn't figure out why because 'nothing has changed'. And I can tell you many, many stories like these... Parrots are incredibly patient and, when they live under conditions less than good, they wait and wait and wait for things to change until, one day, they realize they won't and that's when the trouble starts. And, always, always, catches the owners by surprise because they, like you, believed that you can keep an animal under unnatural conditions and get away with it. And you can't, not with 99.99% of them. It's all a matter of time...
Pajarita
Norwegian Blue
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is female
Posts: 18701
Location: NW Pa
Number of Birds Owned: 30
Types of Birds Owned: RoseBreasted too, CAG, DoubleYellowHead Amazon, BlueFront Amazon, YellowNape Amazon, Senegal, African Redbelly, Quaker, Sun Conure, Nanday, BlackCap Caique, WhiteBelly Caique, PeachFace lovebird, budgies,
Flight: Yes

Re: Critique My Setup (New Poi Owner)

Postby Grraarrgghh » Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:50 pm

I've invested in a very fancy plug timer and a good full spectrum light.

That said, according to what has been written above, is the ultimate moral of the story that we are cruel jerks for keeping parrots for our own amusement/companionship/love?

The truth hurts I suppose.
Grraarrgghh
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Re: Critique My Setup (New Poi Owner)

Postby Wolf » Mon Nov 24, 2014 4:17 pm

Well , the problem is that we don't know enough and we are destroying their natural habitat as well. Any way that you look at it, it does not present a very pretty picture. All I can say is that you have the bird and he will bond as he is imprinted on humans and cannot survive on his own, so keep researching and learn as much as you can about them so that you can constantly improve on the conditions that you provide for him. This will take every bit of the time that you have the bird, so consider that this is going to be a lifelong study. And always spend as much time with your bird as possible, and give him all the love you can as well. All we can do is the best we can and hope to stay out of our own way.
It is good to know that despite our best efforts that we fall short of providing for them adequately as it can help us to do better and spur us to study and learn more so that we can do a better job.
Wolf
Macaw
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is male
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African Grey (CAG)
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Budgie
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