Why bigger cage?

[Michael]

Feel free to write your FAQ as long as you are willing to write it in a fair/unbiased way. So if you'd like to just voice your opinion, you can do that in discussion. But if you will adhere to more common (rather than your personal) views about cages, then feel free to call it an FAQ.

Allow me to quote the "Guide to the Senegal Parrot and Its Family" by Mattie Sue Athan (page 81).

A common and appropriate cage is 20 x 20 x 28 inches with a 3/4 space between the bars. A cage fewer than 18 inches deep can sometimes make a bird feel more exposed than protected because it cannot move back very far into the cage.

They didn't say that 20 x 20 is the minimum but rather a common size cage. Mind you that this was talking about a common cage size for most Poicephalus and not specifically for Senegal Parrots. Kili is on the smallest range of Senegal Parrots in size. And they only stated that a cage "fewer than 18 inches" would be too small. Basically the way I take this as well as from personal experience, 18x18 is the minimum size. I am well aware that my parrot is in a minimally sized cage. If she were in a below minimum sized cage and I became aware of this (as originally happened), I would immediately replace with something larger. However, as she is in a cage that is at minimum, I don't feel compelled to rush to replace it. Certainly when the time comes to replace the cage or if I come across some extra income, I will gladly replace with a larger cage.

From the routines we have established with Kili, she is not particularly active during the day (whether in cage or not) but is quite active in the evenings which is when she is normally out anyway. All I ask is that you grant me that she is within minimums for cage size. I full understand that bigger is better but replacing a cage is a fairly major expense that I would rather put off until necessary.

Also, I don't over stuff her cage with toys. Actually you'll probably disagree with me on that as well, but usually I don't put more than 3 toys in the cage. Rather I usually keep 3 toys in the cage. I do replace them more frequently but not too many at once. So I would say she has plenty of room to move around inside and lots of perches. But at the same time, she really enjoys being out and spending time together. The cage is more of a resting place than play area for her. She'd rather play together with me when she is out and relax when she is in cage.

[Natacha]

But I think, Micheal, that part of the problem is not you and Kili. Obvioulsy she is quite active during your training sessions.

But let's be honest, it's not everyone who does this. Based on experience of what I have seen, people, when leaving birds out of their cages, just let them hang out in one spot. These birds are often clipped. These birds could benefit from a bigger cage.

Seeing how people do look up to you, they will take what they want from what you say and leave the rest - you say an 18" x 18" cage is ok - they'll take that and leave what you do with Kili out of the equation.

As for information found in books..it often gets outdated. Yes, there are new issues, but some elements get left in that should be revised. Unfortunately as well, a lot of things in there are left to the author's discretion and opinion as well. I have seen many more publications recommending bigger size cages for Poicephalus that what is recommended in "Guide to owning a Senegal parrot" and these publications are as serious. Quite frankly, having seen Mathie Sue speak once, I would take what she says with a grain of salt as well - not saying everything is bad but as with everyone else, she does not hold the ultimate truth.

[Michael]

I don't recommend people to get 18x18 cage. Heck, the further I go, the more I recommend that people DON'T BUY A PARROT in the first place. I've been taking Kili outside a lot and kids will tell their parrots how they want a parrot or the parents will ask the kids if they want one. I immediately tell them that they are very aggressive and that it took 2 years of training Kili to get her this way. This isn't quite true, but I know that the way those people would treat the parrot, it would be a self fulfilling prophecy and the parrot would be neglected and turn mean.

If I could, I'd recommend people keep parrots in aviaries or cage less but I know that is impractical and I know that under my circumstances I could not be a role model that way either. I am well aware that bigger cages (with appropriate bar spacing, let's not forget to leave that out cause you know some people take this advice too far) are better. I recommend for people to buy larger cages. If someone would like to donate a larger cage to Kili, I'm all up for that as well. I started this discussion specifically about my cage so that's why I've been discussing my specific situation. I guess if the topic were more broad about people's opinions about cage sizes in general and what is ideal, I would agree that bigger is better. Considering I don't believe in overloading the cage with toys, it works out for me in terms of space.

I'm going to see how things work out with the Cape cage and I'll see how that affects my opinion of cage size. I understand that concerned owners buy larger cages and begin to think their size is best, however, I think a legitimate entry level minimum needs to be established. I wouldn't be surprised if you guys with larger cages introduced your parrots full time to a flight aviary, they'd be even more active and better off but we all understand that is often impossible. There is no upper limit to cage space but there is a lower limit. How do we establish what the lower limit is? According to the criteria I listed before, 18x18 just meets that lower limit. However, for every diversion from minimums, a larger minimum is established.

If the cage has many toys, add a few inches. If parrot spends too much time in cage, add some inches. If parrot is bulkier, add some inches. Etc, etc... I am only talking about the base line limit and I agree that it would be nice for Kili to have a larger cage but I don't see it as a huge priority at this time as hers is functional and she is comfortable. Everyone commented on how large the Cape cage is but when comparing the birds mass, the cages are equally proportional.

Actually, I think it is larger parrots that most suffer the plight of under sized cages. It's easy to have a fairly large cage relative to a small parrot. But the large parrots really do need enormous cages that are beyond our practical constraints. Remember how we discussed that a hyacinth should have an entire room at least? Personally, I think the minimum cage size suggestions for greys, toos, and macaws are the more ridiculous ones. Kili has full motion around her cage. Meanwhile I see pictures of greys/macaws that probably couldn't fully spread their wings in the cage and definitely don't have the kind of room to climb around.

[pchela]

Here is something we definitely agree on. DON'T BUY A PARROT! I really think that most people should not have parrots. In fact, I'd say that it would be better if their were no parrots in the pet trade at all but that is unrealistic. Cockatoos I definitely think should be removed from the pet trade.

I also agree that the larger parrots really tend to get screwed in the cage size department.

[CheekyandMalolo]

Birds like being up high, and rarely go to the bottom of their cage without a good reason.

Are my birds the only ones that love playing on the bottom of their cage?? they throw vegies down there, then go down and feed and play + fall asleep on the bottom. means I have to clean it all the time, but they love it


Honestly I think if Kili's getting out and about that much then her sized cage is fine, there's no reason to go out and buy a new one when you have a perfectly good one right there.

[TheNzJessie]

your bird is not the only bird the rainbow lorikeet is known to spend a majority of there time on the ground or lower to the ground, mine loves playing with toys on the bottom of the cage and rolling onto his back

[Natacha]

Are my birds the only ones that love playing on the bottom of their cage?? they throw vegies down there, then go down and feed and play + fall asleep on the bottom. means I have to clean it all the time, but they love it

Mine do to, I have a bucket with food toys down there and when I come home they are generally all over the place.

[entrancedbymyGCC]

Scooter only goes down to the bottom if I'm cleaning the tray and have it out... then hes fascinated that he can see through the "floor" and climbs back into the cage to check it out.

[miajag]

I'm with Michael on this one. All else being equal a bigger cage is obviously better, but as I mentioned in my earlier post there are other factors such as cost, space, etc. that must be taken into account. I wouldn't describe 18x18 as "too small" for a Senegal, especially one who spends plenty of time out of the cage. Less than I would consider ideal perhaps, but it's not even close to being cruelly small. I mean, we're not talking about a tiny little budgie cage here. Would a 20x24 cage improve Kili's quality of life over the 18x18 enough to justify the cost and amount of additional space it would take up (and the stress from switching to a new cage)? I can't say for sure, but obviously for Michael the answer is no, and I'm fine with that.

[pchela]

Actually most tiny little budgie cages are around 18 x 16 or 14... somewhere around there so there is really not much difference between that and a standard, heavy duty 18 x 18 cage. They look deceptively smaller because they don't have all of the space at the bottom (which most birds don't use anyway) and they are made of thin wire rather than stronger bars. There is just no way that 18 x 18 is big enough for an active parrot. Buying a cage that is too small is one of the most common mistakes a new bird owner makes. I saw it time and time again at the pet store I worked at and I did it myself and I understand that it is not easy to replace an expensive cage with a bigger, more expensive cage but that doesn't change whether the size is too small. I personally found my larger cages on Craigslist and they ended up being far less expensive than the 18 x 18 cage that I bought originally. I then sold that cage for more than I paid for the replacement so it can be done with a little effort. I don't really understand why this is even a debate since I assume that people who join an online parrot forum do so in the hopes of learning about and improving their birds quality of life. Everybody who has said that 18 x 18 is fine has also said that bigger is better. I honestly do not understand why people argue this point and I'm not trying to be rude or belittle anybody, I genuinely don't get it.