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Why bigger cage?

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Re: Why bigger cage?

Postby skeetersunconure » Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:36 pm

pchela wrote:*sitting in the corner holding my tongue*

what is that supposed to mean?????????????????
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skeetersunconure
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Re: Why bigger cage?

Postby Natacha » Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:55 pm

skeetersunconure wrote:
pchela wrote:*sitting in the corner holding my tongue*

what is that supposed to mean?????????????????


I'm going to make the assumption, based on previous posts from pchela and the fact that we seem to share a similar opinion, that a bigger cage would be better, but since everyone seems to go on the consensus that there is no real need to upgrade, she won't say anything.

That's how I feel anyways.

I had my Senegal in an 18" x 18" cage when she was a baby and still learning to get around (she had a broken leg). It was nice then, but I changed it the moment she was comfortable getting around and really do believe the cage would have been too small, specially since she spends most of the day in it when I'm at work.

edited to add: Since it is a forum about parrot ownership and that in regards to so many other elements we are trying to promote the best course of action, I don't believe that saying that an 18"x18" cage for a bird the size of a Senegal or Sun Conure to be right. While it might work for some people, a bigger cage would definitively be better for these type of birds.
My blog http://poiworld.blogspot.com/
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Piper ~ Lovebird
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Léa ~ Cape parrot
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Re: Why bigger cage?

Postby pchela » Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:16 pm

Natacha wrote:
skeetersunconure wrote:
pchela wrote:*sitting in the corner holding my tongue*

what is that supposed to mean?????????????????


I'm going to make the assumption, based on previous posts from pchela and the fact that we seem to share a similar opinion, that a bigger cage would be better, but since everyone seems to go on the consensus that there is no real need to upgrade, she won't say anything.

That's how I feel anyways.

I had my Senegal in an 18" x 18" cage when she was a baby and still learning to get around (she had a broken leg). It was nice then, but I changed it the moment she was comfortable getting around and really do believe the cage would have been too small, specially since she spends most of the day in it when I'm at work.

edited to add: Since it is a forum about parrot ownership and that in regards to so many other elements we are trying to promote the best course of action, I don't believe that saying that an 18"x18" cage for a bird the size of a Senegal or Sun Conure to be right. While it might work for some people, a bigger cage would definitively be better for these type of birds.



Yes. That's what I meant. Thank you Natacha.
"I bet the sparrow looks at the parrot and thinks, yes, you can talk, but LISTEN TO YOURSELF!" ~ Jack Handy ~ Deep Thoughts
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Re: Why bigger cage?

Postby skeetersunconure » Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:42 pm

okay well i guess i can understand but my cage was epensive and the lady who sold it to me said it would be fine? it cost a pretty penny probably 250 dollars! so i really dont think my mom will be letting me get a bigger one since she thinks that that cage is the best in the world and told me that she's not going to get a nother one for him if he was in my own house i would get him a bigger one but right now i cant.
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Re: Why bigger cage?

Postby lzver » Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:58 pm

I wouldn't worry about it Michael ... you know Kili and how much time she spends out of her cage. Lucy only uses the top half of her cage while Jessie uses his whole cage. If I got Jessie a bigger he would use the whole thing but not Lucy.
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Re: Why bigger cage?

Postby Michael » Sat Jun 05, 2010 11:29 pm

Would you guys just give me a break? I take Kili outside at least 4 out of 7 days during the summer to be or fly outside in the summer. She has free range in my apartment which is all one big open room (18x60ft) when she is out. I'm not gonna lie and say she's out all the time cause she is not. I find that down time for the parrot is equally important as out time in order to manage aggression and attitude. However, when she is out, she can fly from area to area and do pretty much what she likes. Personally I think the flight opportunities make up for cage size. I know bigger cage size as a great bonus to flight opportunities. So if I were buying her cage in retrospect or replacing it, things might be different. However, considering how she gets to fly and go outside, I don't think the cage size is that big of a deal. The cage definitely isn't under-sized. It may be the minimal recommended cage size for Senegal parrots but it is still a legit size.
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Re: Why bigger cage?

Postby pchela » Sun Jun 06, 2010 1:24 am

I only push this issue because I firmly believe that 18 x 18 is undersized for a Senegal or similar sized bird. I feel as strongly about that as you do about wing clips but you already know my opinion. I do feel that it is important to let other people know that 18 x 18 is too small and many people look to you as an example as you are the forum leader. That's all I will say to you on the subject but I will continue to try to educate other people on the board about cage sizes.
"I bet the sparrow looks at the parrot and thinks, yes, you can talk, but LISTEN TO YOURSELF!" ~ Jack Handy ~ Deep Thoughts
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Lesser Jardine's - Rupert
Timneh African Grey - Isabeau (Ibby)
Flight: Yes

Re: Why bigger cage?

Postby Natacha » Sun Jun 06, 2010 7:26 am

pchela wrote:I only push this issue because I firmly believe that 18 x 18 is undersized for a Senegal or similar sized bird. I feel as strongly about that as you do about wing clips but you already know my opinion. I do feel that it is important to let other people know that 18 x 18 is too small and many people look to you as an example as you are the forum leader. That's all I will say to you on the subject but I will continue to try to educate other people on the board about cage sizes.


Pretty much how I feel about it.
My replies are not necessarily directed at you Michael as much as it's providing an alternative to anyone coming to this forum looking for information.

I do not believe that promoting an 18# x 18" cage as a general ok size to anyone looking for the ideal size of cage for a Senegal or anything of similar size is right. While you might think it works for you, you do not know what people will do with their birds, if they will let their flight feathers grow in, if they will allow them a lot of time out of the cage, and for this, I believe it is important to say that bigger is better. ANYONE can see this.
My blog http://poiworld.blogspot.com/
Videos of my birds http://www.youtube.com/user/poicephaluslady
Piper ~ Lovebird
Shade ~ Senegal
Joey & Pixel ~ Red-bellied parrots
Petey & Zuri ~ Meyer's parrots
Léa ~ Cape parrot
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Natacha
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Types of Birds Owned: PF Lovebird, Senegal Parrot, Red-bellied Parrots, Meyer's Parrot, Cape Parrot
Flight: Yes

Re: Why bigger cage?

Postby Michael » Sun Jun 06, 2010 8:36 am

I don't understand how you guys establish a minimum cage size for a given species. Why is 20x24 enough but 18x18 not enough? What determines this? My understanding is the rule of thumb for minimum cage size is that the bird comfortably fits through the door, can flap its wings inside and has space to move around. Obviously 18x18 fits that criteria for Senegal. I do understand that bigger would have been better and if I were doing things otherwise I'd have gotten a bit bigger. But I only see that as a bonus rather than a necessity. You guys haven't convinced me that 18x18 is below minimum. I admit it's minimal. If you get much smaller than this, the parrot won't have room to move around, flap, or go out through door. So I do admit I'm keeping mine in a minimal sized cage and that when the time comes to change it, I'd get a bigger one. But I really don't see why this isn't ok as the minimal sized cage for a Senegal Parrot.

PS Kili is below average sized Senegal for that matter as well.
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Flight: Yes

Re: Why bigger cage?

Postby pchela » Sun Jun 06, 2010 1:50 pm

I don't know what else to say that I haven't already said but I guess I will try.

A cage should be big enough to fit several (3 to 5) toys and a variety of perches. Most cages also lose space with the food dishes, usually three, taking up several inches of usable space. The space at the bottom of the cage can't really be counted as most birds do not use it anyway. So, an 18 x 18 cage becomes much, much smaller when you take into account all of that. Since 18 x 18 is already a small space to begin with, it is just too small for an active bird the size of a senegal. If it has enough toys and perches in it, there would be no room for a senegal to spread or flap its wings comfortably. I wouldn't put anything larger than a Lovebird in one.

If your parrot is out all day long and only sleeps in it's cage I guess 18 x 18 would be okay, but even then I hesitate because people have to leave the house sometimes and the bird is going to have to spend a fair amount of time in it's cage no matter what.

Many people say that their bird won't use the extra space anyway and that may be true for a minority of birds, but I have heard stories and seen first hand that a bird who just sat on one perch in his small 18 x 18 cage actually started playing and being much more active when moved to a larger cage. I believe it's because he had more room to comfortably move around and didn't feel so cramped.

A 24 x 20 cage (which I, and many experts consider the minimum) offers 6 extra inches and generally is wider rather than taller. It really does make a difference. Even with that, when I say minimum I still mean that larger than that would be better. I think most of us would agree that parrots are like little feathered monkeys and they need lots of room to play.

I know that you feel that clipping a birds wings and taking away it's natural ability to fly is the wrong thing to do. I believe that keeping a bird in a cage is the wrong thing to do. A caged bird goes against the freedom a bird represents. But, it is necessary to keep them caged if we are to keep them as pets, mainly for their safety. I strongly believe that if we are going to take these creatures that are meant to have the entire sky as their playground and put them in a cage, the very least we can do is provide them with as large a cage possible. An 18 x 18 cage to me is bordering on cruelty. The benefits of a larger cage are both mental and physical. A larger cage improves a birds quality of life. I don't understand why anybody would balk at providing their bird with a more comfortable home.

We generally provide ourselves with as large a home as we can afford and the same should be true of our parrots. Sure, we could survive living and sleeping in a closet with barely enough room to walk around, but would we be happy with that even if we got to spend a lot of our time outside? I think it would drive most of us crazy eventually.

Anyway, I know that you care about Kili and take great care of her. The cage issue seems to be the only issue we don't see eye to eye on and as I said earlier, it worries me that so many people look to you as an example when you have Kili in a cage that is too small for her. I've thought about writing up a cage size faq, but it would contradict your beliefs on the subject so I haven't because it is your forum. I have to convince you first and I'm working on that!
"I bet the sparrow looks at the parrot and thinks, yes, you can talk, but LISTEN TO YOURSELF!" ~ Jack Handy ~ Deep Thoughts
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pchela
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Gender: This parrot forum member is female
Posts: 1281
Number of Birds Owned: 3
Types of Birds Owned: Senegal -Pippin
Red Belly - Nicholas
Lesser Jardine's - Rupert
Timneh African Grey - Isabeau (Ibby)
Flight: Yes

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