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The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

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Re: The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

Postby CaitlinRice413 » Sat May 03, 2014 3:59 pm

:P
Last edited by CaitlinRice413 on Mon Sep 08, 2014 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

Postby Wolf » Sat May 03, 2014 4:16 pm

Hi Caitlin ;

While I have been enjoying the discussion between you and cml it appears that you and he are discussing different topics. He is discussing " Food Management " and you are discussing " Weight Management " but you are calling it food management. I base this on you saying that you were going to give the definition of food management but you presented the definition for weight management. They are two separate subjects and while they have many aspects in common they are not interchangeable.
Just thought that you might want to be aware of this as it is the basis of your entire side of the discussion.
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Re: The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

Postby cml » Sat May 03, 2014 5:15 pm

Calling it 'food management' is incorrect, because there is a very specific, delicate process and use. Michael has made up his own definition of it, and his own process that can seriously harm an animal's well being.

No, it's not incorrect and this is where you and I principally disagree I think. You are, as Wolf are reffering to weight management and also mostly about food deprivation.

It's simple, to me, food management means what I've written in my above posts, things you mostly agree with I think if you are willing to accept that semantics have a very important role to play here. I know Michael agrees with this as well, he does not use food management solely for the purpose of motivation, but as a part of a complete approach to parrot keeping.

It does not matter that you state that in academical terms weight management means what your quote says above. Semantics means the meaning of words, and to most people, Avian Vets and Zooligists and Biologists excluded - food management should mean what I've written: to manage food.
The definition from The International Association of Avian Trainers and Educators about weight management is in my personal opinion flawed, and seen from a very narrow point of view - as is Barbara's article.

For the sake of discussion can we agree on this:
Food management: A complete approach where you use it to maintain a healthy diet and make sure your parrot is kept at a good weight.
Weight management: We can use your definition from the AoATaE here if you want, which makes this very similar to food deprivation imo though.

Now I need to sleep, Im going fishing!
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Re: The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

Postby Wolf » Sat May 03, 2014 6:22 pm

cml

Where you going fishing?
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Re: The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

Postby Wayne361 » Sat May 03, 2014 8:28 pm

If the fish are hungry does that mean they have been deprived of food? hahaha....
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Re: The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

Postby CaitlinRice413 » Sat May 03, 2014 9:25 pm

:meyers:
Last edited by CaitlinRice413 on Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

Postby GreenWing » Sat May 03, 2014 9:32 pm

This is me, leaving this thread (not site):

Image


See you all elsewhere on the forum! I wanna talk about cute parrots now.
Image
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Re: The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

Postby CaitlinRice413 » Sat May 03, 2014 11:55 pm

:(
Last edited by CaitlinRice413 on Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

Postby Wolf » Sun May 04, 2014 7:25 am

Hi Caitlin ;
I understand where you are coming from on this issue and respect the passion of your conviction, but as cml stated, at least in this discussion semantics have been getting in the way. I saw this same discrepancy in the article that you presented as part of your evidence, and this caused the article, no matter how well written, researched, and/ or convincing, to also be flawed from its very inception. And this from an " expert " in their field.
As I said earlier the two concepts have many similarities and overlap in many important aspects, but they are different concepts with differing goals. the two concepts, while similar are not interchangeable. One last thought concerning this article; the definition given was Barbara's definition penned for the sole purpose of defining the manner in which she was using the term " Weight Management ". In papers of this type, this is a common practice, this helps to reduce the debate over the semantics of how the term is to be viewed for this paper and this paper alone, and this is done because of the highly specialized nature and intent of the paper itself. It does not provide for a working definition for the general population. Nor does it adhere to the normal definitions of the words or term in common usage.
I suppose that some would consider it wrong of me, but like many people who work with animals, I do find it to be beneficial when training birds to use their natural hunger, such as when they first wake up, to help achieve the desired response. Nor do I object to the withholding of food later in the day for up to two or three hours for the same purpose. I have over forty years of experience in training animals, particularly overly aggressive animals. I have seen no harmful effects in doing this. I do not believe in reducing the overall amount of food the animal receives and I do not use this method beyond the time it takes to teach the animal to respond to other stimuli, usually that of affection and trust. While I use this for training purposes, I think that you will find that this degree of withholding of food is less than what the animal endures in its natural habitat in the normal course of foraging for food. I do not agree with the excessive use or the consistent use of this method as I find that once the animal learns to accept trust and affection as a reward, I have a much more effective means of influencing their behavior.
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Re: The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

Postby cml » Sun May 04, 2014 11:39 am

One last thought concerning this article; the definition given was Barbara's definition penned for the sole purpose of defining the manner in which she was using the term " Weight Management ". In papers of this type, this is a common practice, this helps to reduce the debate over the semantics of how the term is to be viewed for this paper and this paper alone, and this is done because of the highly specialized nature and intent of the paper itself. It does not provide for a working definition for the general population. Nor does it adhere to the normal definitions of the words or term in common usage.

Thanks Wolf, I see you get it :)!
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