CAGs regressing/stagnating with basic training-HELP!!

[sgtpepper]

Hello forum

As some of you may know, in August we got an African Grey pair. They are about 3 year old, no ring on, not hand raised. They had a small cage, no interaction to humans, seed diet only, SCREAMING.
After changing mostly everything, we expected to make some *tiny* progresses in these long months.
With the help of clicker training, we made the female to step up , but the male seemed still reluctant, puffing up, eating his nails and biting us. He took treats from our hands though, and followed the clicker.

HOWEVER, this was more than a month ago. Since then, NO PROGRESS! And because of the male's lack of progress, we are stagnating with the female's training.
Today, the male was very aggressive, territorial, and bit us whenever we wanted to give him a treat, after |following| the clicker.

We don't know what to do now, as this is getting worse.
We stopped letting them outside the cage, as they would not get back inside even after a day, and it was very stressful for both us and the parrots to put them back into the cage. They have a very big cage, they can flap their wings, so space is not a problem. We wanted to make them BOTH step up before taking them out again, but as i said, for more than a month now, everything is just falling apart.

ANY OPINION IS MORE THAN WELCOME!

PS. they still scream about 4-5 rounds a day (9am, 12pm, 3 pm, 6pm, 8 30pm) (the male mostly!)

thank you all

[Wolf]

Can you give us an update on their current diet and lighting schedules? Also don't hold off on working with the female because of the male dragging his feet, so to speak. Not letting them out is counter productive as flight is the only exercise that will actually do them any good. They also need the close personal interaction with you. I understand that this is difficult with the male biting, but continue with the female. These birds talk to each other and continuing with the female may end up helping with the male. He sounds like he is still overly hormonal. It is unfortunate, but this may take more than one season to correct as it depends on how long this condition has existed with him to begin with.
I hope that you are using full spectrum lighting with them as you live so far north that it is the only way that I know of to Supply them with anything like sunlight during this time of the year, although I am not certain as to how much sunlight that you actually get right now.
It can be difficult to remember that with these birds everything is related as there are really no stand alone systems in their bodies.

[sgtpepper]

Hi Wolf,

Yes, we have full spectrum lighting with the specs you and Pajarita gave us. Also, they eat gloop and veggies for breakfast and pellets for dinner. They wake up around 8 and go to bed at around 9.

The problem is that we can not focus too much with the training of the female as he always comes on the bottom of the cage at the door and tries to bite.

We were thinking about having their training where they can not see the cage, so to avoid his obvious territorial aggression. the problem is that we dont know how to take him out.

[Wolf]

Perhaps you can make a t perch for him to step up onto so that you can move him and not get bitten.

[sgtpepper]

We will try. This morning I tried putting a toy in their cage, and as soon as i opend the cage, he ran towards me to attack.. And he screamed and screamed all day long. I cant do anything with Zaura(the female).. He is and always was very stressful, but we tried to overcome that because we thought that things will get better. But now, i dont know..i can not even stand staying home and listening to his screams anymore:(

[Wolf]

I understand and that is a shame because they really need more interaction with you and not less. He is very hormonal still and it has only been a couple on months out of the probable years of being subjected to the wrong environment and it will take quite a bit of time for this to repair itself. His body has got to stop producing the hormones and then they have to exit his bloodstream. Flying is the best thing to help with this since you have been fixing the causes of this condition. If they are in their own room perhaps opening the cage door and backing out of the room will provide the chance for them to fly about a bit. Perhaps you just need to back up so that you are near the doorway and not completely out of the room.
It is really hard to deal with this type of situation and to advise you on how to handle this without being able to be there to help. Keep a thick towel handy for when you have to face his aggression, so that you can protect yourself without hurting him until this corrects itself as it will given the time to do so.

[Wolf]

I really wish that I could be of more help with these birds and be there for them myself as this is the kind of birds that I try to get to bring home with me. I had to deal with an Amazon's screaming constantly for two months and thankfully she didn't attack us and that finally the screaming has finally come down to just an occasional thing of short duration.
It is a shame what these birds have to go through to suit our human vanity and I realize that the majority is due to our ignorance of avian physiology and their individual requirements. But regardless of that this is the time that these birds need you and your understanding and compassion the most.
As I said before I would love to have such a pair of birds and wish that I could have gotten them but I don't have the means to pay for their transport or the know how to import them so I will have to be content with trying to help them and you to get through this very difficult time. It is just as hard on them as it is on you and he is the one who is living in such an incredible amount of pain until this can be healed. I wish that I could do more for you and them.

[Pajarita]

Yes, the problem is hormones. For one thing, you've only had them for a couple of months and it takes a minimum of two entire seasons to get their endocrine system back on track (and much longer to tame them). And, for another, you are giving them 13 hour days and that's breeding season for them! Grays don't breed at the height of spring and beginning of summer, they are what we call 'short days' breeders and they lay early in the spring and almost autumn so 13 hour days and 11 hour nights are exactly right. You can't keep the same number of hours of light and dark all year round, you need to 'adjust' them by 15 minutes every two weeks or so.

[sgtpepper]

Ah! Have not taken that in consideration! Most parrots breed during long days, so I assumed the daylight time they get was just suitable. I did not even look it up, honestly! We will slowly adjust their schedule.

Also, we have a (big) one room apartment. We will be moving to a three room in February.
Still, they never flew when they were outside the cage, they just stood on top of their cage and screamed. And honestly everything was VERY stressful for both the parrots and us. They were misbehaved (destroying everything near the cage-walls, furniture,carpet)and not to mention that it took from several hours to one day to get them back in, even that with huge amount of stress!
Now, of course destruction is what they do, but I want them to spend a quality time outside their cage, not to feel like they own the place, destroy everything, and us not having any control over them. If they would be flying, ok. But just sitting around the cage, screaming and destroying, and us not being able to do anything-not ok.

So now the plan is to take them out *to take Zaura with step up command, and try to teach Dino to step up on a perch* , somewhere where they do not have their cage in sight, put them on a perch, and have our training sessions there. Dino is extremely territorial, and I realized that continuing the training in the cage will not get us far, and it is impossible to work with Zaura when Dino is jumping on the cage door every time we open it.


Also, as far as the diet is concerned, should we limit their sugar/protein intake if they are overly hormonal?

[Wolf]

Most definitely!! Your parrots don't need the sugar other than a little in the form of fruit and they need to be kept on a low protein diet. Just as the length of the days signal breeding season, protein is a trigger for breeding and helps with the production of the very hormones that we need to get out of their system.