Age to begin potty training?

[Roonil Wazlib]

i apologies guys, I just got a little frustrated that no one actually answered my question. ( i know you answered don't do it, but its not exactly answering the question) I understand that you guys don't have an answer for it now, and I've asked someone else, so now i know.

I didn't mean my last comment to be a person attack on anyone, I'm sorry if it came across that way. I shouldn't have have added that last comment, and yeah - that was the ten year old in me coming out, I guess, wolf, i felt hard done by when you answered:

the correct age to potty train a bird is the week following the date that they die.

I was just asking a question, and that comment felt like a personal attack on me, for simply trying to get information to make me a better bird mum, just because it was a question you didn't want to hear. It would have been much nicer just to say "I don't believe in potty training because it causes them to hold it in, causing internal problems, so i personally don't do it."

Guess i felt a little attacked too.

[Wolf]

Actually it was my attempt at humor, I know that humor doesn't always work and I know also that at times I have a decided lack of tact, but it was not intended as an attack or negatively on my part. I do understand how it could be seen that way now that you point it out.

I do know how to potty train a bird, it is just that it is not worth it in terms of the bird. As I said I have one bird that was potty trained, and I did not know it and so with the force of its evacuation when it got out of its cage, I was afraid that it would rupture an intestine. Although I have not seen the results of that with a bird, I have seen the results of a ruptured intestine in horses and it is brutal.

I understand why you would prefer to potty train your bird, I have four ranging in size from a Parrotlet up to an Amazon and it can be a real pain in the .... I also have dogs and cats. The problem is not the potty training, it is how the bird sees it. The bird will try to not poop on you if it is perched on you and you can see this for yourself if you watch them as they will try to position their bottom so that the poop drops to the floor or whatever serves as the ground from where they are perched. They are not always successful in this, but they do try. So you teach it to go to this place to poop and it will do its very best to do so, but it will then hold it until it can get to that spot to poop and no other place will serve the purpose any more, it has to be that place in the birds mind. The one that I have that was potty trained would not poop in its cage, this made cage cleaning quick and easy but, I didn't know this right at first and sometimes the bird had to be in its cage until noon on days that I have doctors appointments as that is a 75 mile round trip and a stop at the pharmacy afterwards. The poor birds poop was honestly almost as big as the bird and you could hear it splat against whatever surface it hit when the bird had the chance to poop.

Now the reason that I am here is for the birds, it is my only motivation as they have a hard time telling humans what they need or want. I try to be considerate of the humans but they are secondary as I am here for the birds welfare only.

[Pajarita]

I think this warrants a clarification. You are going to find LOTS and LOTS of information out there on people doing or not doing things with birds but just because people are doing something or not doing it, it doesn't mean it's good for the bird. People withhold food so the parrot will always perform a trick they taught it. People cover the bird's cage, ignore it, put their cage in a basement or a closet or do not feed a bird when it screams (Michael, himself, at least once did not feed any of his birds because one was screaming). People take baby birds out to be touched by everybody and their grandmother. People free-fly outdoors. People potty train. People keep a bird in a cage for years without letting it out. People clip. People, unfortunately for the birds, do many, many, many things that I think are cruel and terribly traumatizing to birds and these same people will claim to love their bird to pieces and swear that the bird is happy. And, although I do believe that these people are telling the truth as they see it, I don't believe their birds are happy because science will tell that anything that deviates from the kind of life that nature evolved an animal to be will cause it stress. And stress kills birds.

Me, I listen to what people say and then I go to nature and see what she says and then and only then I make my decision. Birds have a super fast metabolism and need to evacuate very often during the day so, as Wolf said, when you potty train, you are, in reality, teaching the bird to hold its poop AND urine (both come out together at the same time) until it can get to a pre-determined spot. This is not healthy for any animal. You talk about potty training as been part of a domestication process but, my dear, you are very wrong about this. For one thing, potty training has nothing to do with this process (you need to breed with a specific goal in mind for a domestication process to start and this has not and is not been done with parrots) and, for another, if that was the goal in mind, breeders would be breeding parrots with deformed intestines (not a very good idea, if you ask me). Last but not least, the domestication process takes hundreds of generations - not somebody training a wild animal to do or not to do something. As to your examples, people don't really potty train cats, they are naturally clean and would look to pee and poop where they have soil, sand, wood shavings, shredded paper or kitty litter because they need a material they can dig before they 'go' and then use it to cover their scat. Also, cats go as often as they want because they always have access to their cat litter and, if they don't, they will pee and poop anywhere. Dogs are another story because we do housebreak them but their domestication process started about 100,000 years ago, we take them out three times a day and, even then it's dangerous to housebreak a little dog when you work full time because holding their urine for so many hours ends up damaging their kidneys (and that's why most of them are wee-wee pad trained which, again, gives them access to 'the spot' 24/7/365). When an animal (or a human, this happens to little children) holds their poop, the 'bottom' part of the intestine widens in order to accommodate the larger and abnormal quantity of feces and this creates all kinds of medical problems.

Personally, I think that if you cannot put up with a little poop, you are not a bird person and should not have a parrot because it goes straight back to the number one and sine qua non requisite for good parrot husbandry: YOU adjust to them, not them to you.

[Roonil Wazlib]

cats go as often as they want because they always have access to their cat litter

and that's why most of them are wee-wee pad trained which, again, gives them access to 'the spot' 24/7/365

So, even if i can provide a spot, or several sports at all times, including in the cage, for the bird to go to, your telling me that even though he has access 24/7/365, he will still hold it? why? Not taking a stab here (this discussion is getting a bit touche for all involved - and I've been upset to the point where I was ready to leave the site, but that's not helping my bird, so I'm still here) - I'm just wondering if they do have access to the potty spots 24/7 would they still hold it, because it takes effort to get to the desired spot? And that means time away from the activities they are doing? Or are they waiting for my cue to let them go to the toilet? (Because i won't have a cue)

If they are creatures of habit, wouldn't they learn over time that when they need to go, they just go to one of the spots, let loose and come back to what ever they were doing?

I'm thinking now rather then have a "potty perch" or the equivalent, have several of the same colored and type bowls all over the house and in the cage, and can rotate the bowls to different spots, so that way they associate going potty into that type of bowl, rather then in a designated spot. I can put two or three bowls in the cage, i can take them in the car, pack them like they are nappies or clothing when going to another house.

the only problem I'm seeing with that is the issue of going outside, in which case I'd take the bowl with me if they don't learn that they can go anywhere outside - or would I not 'potty train' until the bird is comfortable going anywhere outside, that way they can learn that when inside that have to use the potty bowls?

I can handle a bit of poop, i wouldn't be getting the bird otherwise. I'm just trying to find a safe way for the bird to be able to go without going on furniture - I'm not so worried about my furniture, but because he'll be in other peoples homes too, i don't want him pooping all over their things. Plus, when I'm 80, it would be much easier for me to clean up poop from a bowl in the laundry tap, then having to get down on my hands and knees and wipe of the floor and risk putting my hip out of alignment.

I am planing to have this two year old flying around in my life for the rest of my life. I don't want it to get to the point where he's going to be too hard for me to look after - at the point where shouldn't be a problem (this day will eventually come, i no, but thinking of ways to prevent such an issue for as long as possible)

[Wolf]

If the bird would, indeed have access to the places to go potty at all times then I can't object. I have never seen this to actually happen as of this time, but that is the reason for them to hold it and cause problems down the road, so if that problem can be addressed then I have no objection.

[Roonil Wazlib]

Well, that's good. I think i will try with the bowls. My boyfriend is pretty nifty, and we should be able to come up with a bowl attached to a small perch that we can make many of, one or two in the cage will give the bird access to that all the time. When in the house with me, I'll have one close by, and one, two or more around the house (and on rotation in different spots)

As far as being outside, that one will be tricky. Will totally take a potty for a walk too, and attach it to my arm, so that when he needs to poop he knows that he can if he is on my arm.

I totally agree with not having to have a particular spot for the bird to have to go in. And i understand now that it's not a good idea. I'm hoping my method above will give the bird access to the 'potty spot' at all times, esp because he will be experience being in several different houses, I can just set up his potty there, and he'll know he can go in that spot, because of the rotation at home, it won't be expected for him to go in a certain spot, just that he does it over one of those bowls.

If at any time i notice he is trying to hold it in, I will do everything within my power to re-train/let him know that he doesn't have to, and if that fails to work, I'll quit with the bowls and re-train him to not have to use a certain spot or thing to go to the toilet.

[Wolf]

You will not notice that he is holding it, what you will notice is a larger than normal amount of poop and even then not always every time. But they always try to position themselves so that the poop drops to the ground instead of where they are walking, they don't want to step in it either.

I have a small bucket under my coffee table that I use for mine to poop in, they are not trained to use it as I don't make a thing about it, I just know them well enough that when I see that they are ready to go, I move the bucket and hold my arm over it. I am not always fast enough with the bucket but at least it drops to the floor which is what they think I am doing. Just moving so it drops on the floor, I always have something to clean it up and they see me clean it up. Because I don't make a big deal of it or rush to get the bucket enough to draw any attention to it they poop wherever just as any other bird does. It is like I am birdie poop trained as it falls on me to be prepared and to do what it takes and not on them.

[liz]

Myrtle does not poop when she flies. She has favorite places in the house to perch and that is where she goes. I just put a paper down where it will land.

The only thing that bothers me is you want to potty train before you even get him.

[Pajarita]

But, my dear, first of all what you propose is simply so very unpractical (grabbing certain specific bowls every single time you go anywhere with the bird?! Attaching one to your arm?!) but, aside from that, how can you possibly know what is going to happen in the future? What if you and your boyfriend die in a car accident and the bird ends up in a rescue where nobody knows about the poop bowls? What if you have to lay on your back the entire nine months of a pregnancy and there is nobody in the house to put the poop bowls out? What if there is a fire and you have to run out with the bird under your arm and no poop bowls? What if the bird does not choose to roost on the poop perch? Life has so many imponderables that planning for exact specifics that need to last 40 years will simply not work and, when we are talking about the wellbeing of an animal that is under our care, one needs to put things into a practical and logical perspective that will work even when we are not there.

If your issue is the bird pooping on your furniture, having a box of wipes in every room will work just fine but you can also put newspapers under the perches. Going visiting with the bird? (not really recommended, you know, especially with an amazon) Get him used to wearing a flight suit that 'catches' its poop.

But, the biggest problem with what you propose is that it goes against the sine qua non prerequisite of having a healthy and happy parrot: YOU adjust to the bird and do not expect the bird to adjust to you.

[Wolf]

I do agree with all of what Pajarita just said, but regardless of whether I think that your idea is workable or practical or not, the only problem that I am concerned with is that the bird will always have a place to poop where it does not feel the need to hold it ever. If that can be addressed to the birds satisfaction then I can live with it. I have never been able to work out any way to insure that they would never have to hold their poop if I potty trained them and for that reason I don't do it.

My bucket is not really a poop bucket as it is primarily in use to catch pieces of wood from wood carving and my birds don't think anything of it when I see that they are about to poop and I move my arm so that they are over it. The rest of the time I have some toilet paper on hand. It only takes a second to clean up and throw away.