training, how often and how long?

[Sasha2]

Okay so Ive had my sun for almost 2 years now and have made very little progress.She is very skittish, still terrified of hands. Wont step up either. I feel like She is not living the life that she could have if I tried harder on training. She will come up to me and pick at my shirt as long as hands are out of sight.She has gotten on my shoulder only a few times but if I walk to far from her cage she just flies back.
I do admit I gave up because besides taking treats from my hands we seem to hit a wall and cant make further progress.
So being a new year I really want to get her to step up.I dont need a cuddle bug but it would be nice if she trusted me enough to at least do that.
She also hates sticks so stepping up on a stick is out as well.She is pretty much scared of everything.

[Wolf]

Not a lot of information to go on but this sounds to me that when you first got this bird as a baby that you spent your time with training the bird and you were probably excited and very pleased at how easily and how quickly the bird learned. Then for what seemed like to you as no apparent reason your bird stopped and refused any further training and developed the fears that you have mentioned.
Now I realize that this may not be totally accurate but, I am relying on you to correct me and to fill in the missing pieces if I am not close. Birds are very intelligent and it helps when trying to reach them to know enough about when the problems began to see what their reasoning is so that it can be addressed and corrected. This is a very common development with many birds when their owners were advised or simply got caught up in the thrill of the training of their young bird.
If this sounds pretty close to what happened then the thing to do is to start all over from the beginning and earn the birds trust and build the foundation for a lasting relationship that was overlooked when the bird was young. This would also be a good time to look at other aspects of your birds life to improve them where ever they need to be improved.
To this end lets take a close and detailed look at your parrots circumstances and routine. Please tell me about a day in the life of your bird, just an average day. If I were your bird tell me what time I would be getting up in the morning, what would I be having for breakfast and when would I get breakfast. How large is my cage and do I have toys and things to do while I am in my cage and you are not around? What food do I have to nibble on through the day if I get hungry? Can I look outside through a window? How much time will I have out of my cage on a daily basis and how much of that time do you interact with me, you know talking to me, scratching my head and playing with my toys with me? Things of that nature. What type of lighting do I get? Am I in a room all by myself or am I out where you spend most of your time and where interesting things may be occurring? When do I get dinner and what can I expect to be given for dinner? What time do I go to bed? Do you cover my cage and turn the noise down for me so that I can sleep peacefully?
Now to begin addressing your problem on a level of what you need to begin with. When you go into the room with your bird, and I am speaking of after your bird has had breakfast and has eaten, Stop and take a minute to observe your bird. Don't just stare straight on at her as that is what a predator does and will only put her on edge. Pay attention to whether she appear to be relaxed or not and where she is in the cage. Now take a few steps into the room while watching her and if she starts showing signs of being nervous or if she moves away from you in her cage stop and don't approach any closer. Instead, take one step back and start talking to her in a calm and soothing voice. If she starts relaxing, then you can take a couple of steps closer and continue talking to her, singing is also a good activity for this exercise. Birds love singing and music. Everytime she relaxes for a couple of minutes you can slowly move closer and every time she starts to get nervous, you take one step back, until she relaxes again. After about 15 minutes whether you have made it to the cage or not say goodbye and leave. You can come back in about 15 minutes and repeat the process.
Now don't forget to bring treats when you do this exercise with your bird because when you reach the cage you will need the treat. Since your bird already knows you, you will probably make it to the cage during the first or second session. Once you are there offer a treat through the bars and if she takes it calmly then open the door and offer her a treat directly from your fingers. If she takes this treat then you can move on to the next step. This next step is to offer the treat to her in such a way that she must step up onto your hand to get the treat. Don't work on this for more than 15 minutes at anytime. Short frequent session while doing this will get you further faster than a long session.
What you are doing with this exercise is letting your bird see that you are going to listen to her and that you are the bringer of good things. You are allowing her to set the pace and thereby showing her that you can be trusted and that she doesn't need to be afraid of you. This allows you to earn her trust and start to build a good relationship with her. Your bird needs to have time out of the cage to explore and exercise and to just hang out with you. Truthfully she really needs as close to a 4 hour minimum time out of the cage on a daily basis, with one hour at least on and about you. so when she is out of the cage begin by placing her down next to you and near your hand, but don't try to do anything else with your hand except that occasionally to offer a treat with it. Don't forget to talk to her during this time out of the cage. Bonding is a process and it does take some time and how much time it takes is largely dependent on the amount of trust that she has in you. So during this period the more time that you can spend with her on and about you the better. If she flies back to her cage, it is alright. Just wait a few minutes and go and ask her to step up again and bring her back to where you are sitting and continue to talk and hang out with her. You mention that if you move too far from her cage that she just flies back to it, so set up a small table and chair near enough to her cage that she doesn't fly away, as she trusts you more you can increase the distance from the cage.

[Sasha2]

I do wish I had gotten her as a baby but she is a rehome.Im her third owner.I was told she was 2yo when I got her but not sure. She did lay eggs for the first time last year so we know she is a female.
The family we got her from was on the army base and had toddlers, she had to go back to work and couldnt care for her anymore, she also had her wings trimmed and fed walmart birdseed.


So I get up every morning and uncover both cages at 8. I change water and make them breakfast.
She will scream until I give her at least some seed over her salad(she has pellets all the time in another bowl).
I then open the top of both cages (making sure they have done that humongous morning poop).
Some days she comes out and sits on her rope perch.Some days she doesnt come out at all.
I cannot touch her, as I said she is terrified of hands and will not let them anywhere near her.Even to put food in her bowl, she runs away screaming and only comes back to eat after my hand is gone.
Most days the cages are open all day except on weekends and wednesdays.Or if I need to go out.

HERE is the block.She will take a sunflower seed out of my hand(her favorite treat) but only if my fingers are pinched and holding the seed in the thumb and forefinger.If my hand is flat or in any other position she will come no where near it. I cant get her past this part.Ive tried so hard to get her to take the seed from my fingertips with my hand flat but its no go. I know the other family tricked her and grabbed her to get her out of the cage. I just cant seem to build enough trust with her to get past this.

Thanks so much for such a detailed reply but I cant do any of the training if I cant get her to step up or even get her to want to be with me. She will even take a treat from my lips(being careful not to get any saliva on the treat, just from dry lips)

[Wolf]

Well that definitely explains her trust issue. Sun Conures have a tendency to be high strung all by themselves so the grabbing her had to be extremely traumatic to say the least. Thank you for the information as well as the correction of my first theory. It helps a lot, although it most definitely will make it more difficult to reach through to win her trust. It also brings me to having even more questions. Does she eat any vegetables, especially ones that could be offered in strips or something similar? If you do training with you other bird, do you do it where your Sun Conure can watch you with it?
Your Sun Conure is smart and she knows that with the sunflower seed held between your fingers that you can't grab her, so she is just protecting herself from further abuse of this type. Unfortunately the only thing you can do at this point is to be patient with her until she is ready to trust you. Offering long thin treats might help in the long run, although if she does eat any veggies that are suitable to be cut this way you may need to start off with just putting a couple of pieces in her cage while she figures out that they are safe. It is quite possible that you best recourse is to set up a training area in front of the cages so that she can watch you wok and play with your other bird, it would not be the first time that seeing that another bird is willingly playing and spending time with and on you while you are doing nothing with her but talking to her with the occasional offering of a treat has help a frightened bird to reach past their fears to learn to trust again.
I have a 15 yr. old Amazon that was also traumatized and after spending a year of talking to her and playing with my other birds in front of her has just begun coming out of her cage on a regular basis. She has been coming out sporadically now for several months, but will still not take a single treat from our hands. Once in a while she will step up to be put on her tree which is in front of her cage. She has no problem going back to her cage from the tree but that is the extent of how much we can touch her at this point. It sounds like your Sun Conure and my Amazon are in roughly the same place as far as trust goes. I know that we have made the progress that we have with our Amazon is due directly to her seeing the other birds flying and walking about and getting treats and choosing to come to us on their own for attention.
With your Sun Conure, you will not be able to set up any timetable for anything, as it all depends on hoe deeply she is traumatized and how much mental and emotional healing must take place before she is ready to trust any human again. Eat new foods in front of her and offer her some, talk to her, sing to her, play with your other bird right in front of her and spend as much time hanging out with her as you can and she will eventually begin to respond to this. The steps may be small and not frequent at first but be patient with her.
I would also change her diet as she is getting too much fat and protein from the seeds and pellets. Together the seeds and pellets should make up at the most 50% of her diet and I would try to keep it to about 40% max. The remainder should be whole grains and fruit and vegetables being much heavier on the veggies than fruit. That will also help to calm her down and dramatically reduce the chances of liver disease, which she is at high risk of on her current diet.

[Pajarita]

Wolf is correct, you need to change her diet and take your time with her -you should also uncover her cage earlier and only turn on the lights (good quality full spectrum) at around 8 am (and you should be turning them off at around 3:30 pm and allow dusk to fall naturally and for the birds to go to sleep after).

But you can also start training her. Wait until mid-morning, after she's had her breakfast and bath/preen session and, when you see her relaxing, do a 10 minute training session (no more!). Then, again, mid-afternoon and when she has been active for about 1/2 hour after her noon rest (it should be around 2pm). First teach her to target (she needs to touch the tip of the stick with her beak and, when she does, you give her a sunflower seed with your 'pinched' fingers). Once she learns this, teach her to step up onto a stick (not the one with the target, a regular stick -you can even use a tree branch), and, later, to step down. It doesn't matter that you have to offer the treat with pinched fingers, the regular interaction without pressure, haste and at the right times of the day will start building trust in her and, eventually, she will start 'forgetting' about hands that grab and start focusing only on hands with sticks and treats. Once you've been this for a long time (say, 3 months or so), she is used and looking forward to the steady routine and you see that she is relaxed, you can start putting your index finger on it (you grab the stick by wrapping your fingers around it against your palm except the index which you rest on the stick), she might be reluctant to step on it at the beginning but, if she does, just ask twice and leave it be (don't give her the treat), wait about 10 minutes (do or pretend to do something else) and come back and ask again. If she doesn't do it, it's fine, wait until the next training session and ask again. Once she has been perching on the stick with your finger on it (the stick has to be long enough so she has room to perch at the end where there is no finger) for 7 to 10 days without hesitation (and it HAS to be without hesitation, you can't rush these things), start shortening the stick. Just one inch at a time and, again, wait until 7 or 10 days for her to get on it without hesitation - and then shorten another inch. Eventually, if you are very patient and always take into consideration her wishes and allow her to set the pace, she will step on your finger -just make sure your hand is not open, it has to be a fist with your index sticking out only, even the thumb should be 'tucked' in. If you achieve this, it will be the first step for her to eventually accept an open hand.

[Sasha2]

Thanks so much for this, I am going to print it off and try this for 3 months.
I worry about the stick, she is afraid of things and dont know if she will see the stick as a threat(things being poked in her cage by little kids from her past). But I will try it.

As for eating she has roudybush pellets(a mix of lowfat and maintance). She will eat apples, some fresh greens, and blueberries and carrot.I still make her a salad every morning with fruits and veggies like I do my greencheek. I also add in scrambled egg once in a great while or black beans(the only beans my greencheek will eat).
She will however eat anything that resembles bread.I make a birdie bread with sweet potato, collard greens and as many other veggies I can cram in without it not being bread anymore and she loves it.
I give that once or twice a week.
I am really trying to commit to getting her trained of course she is very hormonal right now and laid an egg last night.I am covering her cage earlier now so hopefully this will help. Once she is over this I will start training.

[Wolf]

The salad for breakfast is really good, The pellets all day long is not so good as it is too much protein and prolongs the time that she is hormonal, and also leads to liver disease. Perhaps you could use cooked whole grains instead. Let her have enough salad and whole grain to last until dinner time and then give her the pellets and then remove the leftover pellets after she goes to sleep.
About the sticks, try putting then on a table or something where she can see them from a distance and move them closer as she relaxes until you can lay them on top of her cage without her being scared. That will help desensitize her to them and let her see that they are not going to hurt her. Also let her see you examining the stick and turning it this way and that way, just fiddling with it like you would show her a hew toy and hoe it works. Again start playing with the sticks from a distance slowly moving closer as she relaxes.

[Sasha2]

I dont understand why pellets are bad.Ive been told so often to get them on pellets.
I mean Im open to knew ideas, most "premade" animals foods suck. But what are whole grains?
Like whole wheat bread or oatmeal or corn stuff like that?

[Wolf]

I know that you are doing what you have been advised to do but that information is outdated, although still prevalent in the bird care industry. When it was realized that birds were dying from liver disease when fed an all seed diet the feed companies decided to make pellets. Their reasoning was hat the birds were just picking out the high fat and high protein seeds and not eating the rest. This does have some merit. But pellets are mostly ground up seeds, soy products, artificial vitamins and minerals held together with some binding agent. Feeding pellets does nothing to reduce the amount of fat and protein intake of the bird. Roudybush did produce a lower fat pellet but this still did not address the over abundance of protein. The excessive amount of protein can affect your bird by prolonging the breeding cycle, which causes your bird to be hormonal. Many birds have allergic reactions to soy products which manifests in sever cases as feather plucking and self mutilation and in milder cases as being itchy. Then on top of these effect thee is the dryness of the pellets themselves. Birds normally eat food that has a high percentage of moisture, about75% or more mostly, this is probably because most birds only drink in the morning after they eat or in the evening. The pellets have to draw enough moisture from somewhere in order for the bird to digest them, this moisture is drawn from the surrounding tissues and because of this can cause dehydration in your bird.
Whole grains are whole wheat, rolled oats, steel cut oats, pearled barley, wild rice, quinoa buckwheat and spelt to name some. If you don't have a local health food store to get whole grains from you can get boxes of Kashi 7 Grain Pilaf and use the grains from that.
There is documentation to all that I have said and I can provide links to my sources of this information if you want. I have worked with animals all of my life so between my own animals and professionally that is 45 plus years. I am fairly new to keeping birds, which is a story in itself, so because I didn't know anything I did a crash course in educating myself, a process that I spend 2 to 4 hours daily doing still. I do not recommend that you take my word for any of this, I do recommend that you take some time to do your own research from veterinary sources and scientific papers. I urge you to start researching all about your birds and everything that affects them for yourself as I think that it is in the best interest of your birds for you to do so.

[Sasha2]

Last night I was on this site called holisticbird. Really good site.I just worry that I can stick to such a big order. I mean Im no spring chicken, I have bad days and throwing pellets and seed mix in a cage is easy.
I am very rural so I have to generally order everything. We dont even have a Walmart.
So I can probably order the kashi 7 grain but do you cook it or give it as is?
My guys hate warm or gooey foods(Ive tried some of those cooked bird foods).