question regarding keeping 2 bonded parrots together

[amia]

Hello, probably in a week are supposed to get our new Jardine's parrot after going to solid food. Yesterday my wife went in a new direction and I wanted to check with you its meanings:
The Jardin grew up in a cage with a fledgling Conure since their hatching and they play well together. The plan was to take only the Jardin, however, it seemed it would be like separating the two "brothers" and she is considering the possibility to take both.
The question is whether \ how much it can hurt their bonding with us as they grow (currently both appear to be bonded to us and to each other) if there are other things that we should consider (for example, whether a cage A11 which we bought is enough for both of them, if they can be together in the same cage, etc.)?
The advantage is that they will have eachother's company and that since they each have a different character we can enjoy both types. The downside can be one of the reasons described and \ or we would have half the time with each and perhaps they might envy each other when we take out one without the other. Maybe this can cause envy/aggression and other reasons.
I love to hear your opinions and your own experience personal issue.

[liz]

you are basically adopting 2 kids at the same time. you would not separate siblings and that is what they think they are. kept together they will feel more secure and adjust faster. they will learn from each other. each one has his own personality so you may not get the same response from the 2 but that Is the same as if they were kids.

[amia]

Hi,
That was my intention.
The difference is that I was told that if the parrrot is bonded to another parrot it will be less bonded to people. I was asking whetear this is right and to what extent?
Thanks

[Wolf]

No two parrots are the same and although there are species difference the difference in personalities of birds even of the same species can be greater than the difference in the species. At present it sounds like they are both juveniles and if so I would make sure to have two cages as their relationship may change with the onset of puberty and they may or may nor remain bonded or even like each other as adults, you just never know until it happens. With both being for all practical purposes just babies the bond that they develop with you will be the dependent parent/ child type of bond which is also subject to change with puberty. The bond that they develop after puberty is the mate bond and while it is different from they parent/ child bond is the one that we all hope to have as it is the one that could last for a lifetime. The nature of their bonding is always going to be affected by whether or not they have a mate or companion that they have also developed a bond with, but this is also affected by the relationship that you develop with them. I have birds without mates and s couple of birds that do have mates and I have great relationships with both ways. Is there a difference? Yes, but it does not stop my birds from wanting to spend time with and on me even if their mate doesn't want this at the time. So you can have a great relationship with any and all of your bird with or without them having bonded with another bird.
Will there be jealousy between bonded birds either directed at other humans, yourself or other birds? Maybe, and even probably, but there is no way to predict to what extent this will affect these relationships, you just have to wait and see and then act accordingly.
I don't have an answer as to whether the cage that you have is adequate as that is a matter of bar spacing as well as the dimensions of the cage, ie how deep, wide and tall the cage is not counting the stand, just the cage itself. If you provide these measurements then I can answer this.

[amia]

Thanks for your replies.
Notice that the 2 parrots are from different types (Jardin and Crimson Bellied Conure) does this effect the recommendation?
Now, they are about 3 months old.
Do you recommend to use seperate cage from the begining or just if it appears they stop getting along? If it is the first, this might miss the point since the reason we are considering taking both of them and not just the Jardin is that they do get along so well together and might keep each other company in the hours that we are not with them. The intention and the question is find more what will be better for the well being of the parrot- if we take it alone or with his "friend"?
The cage measurments can be seen here:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Quality-Parr ... 1417200518

edit: since the measurments in that page were in cm, I'm adding the measurments also in inches
Cage Size (approx.)
· Outer: 82 x 77 x 165 cm / 32” x 30” x 65”
· Inner*: 60 x 56 x 93 cm / 23” x 22” x 36” (*actual cage size without seed catcher/stand/playtop)

[Wolf]

I would not separate them as long as they get along I suspect that the conure will be the more active of the two and both of them can be a bit aggressive, but over all I would think that they are close enough in their personalities to be a good match. They will probably get along at least until they begin to go through puberty. I would get them DNA sexed, however as this may be a factor in how well they get along when they begin puberty and afterwards as well. If they are of the same sex there is more of a chance that you will need to separate them at that time.
The size of cage that you have is the same size roughly that I use for my Senegal. The easiest way to size the cage for the bird is to double the length of the bird to get the minimum size cage for that bird. A Jardines is close to 12 inches in length which means a wingspan of 24 inches. The Conure is generally about 9 to 10 inches long so they have a wingspan of close to 20 inches. then add these together ( 24 in. plus 20 in. resulting in a measurement of 44 inches) to get the minimum recommended size of cage. This can still work with a smaller cage if they are out more than in the cage. I would recommend a bar spacing of no more than three quarters of an inch.

[amia]

Thanks,
So if I understand your answer correctly then, if this is the largest cage I can fit in my aprtement than it is much too small for both of them together?

[Wolf]

So much depends on how much time they have to be in the cage. If they are going to spend a lot of time in the cage then personally I would try to find a bigger cage and rearrange things to make it fit in. If they are going to be out of the cage mostly then I would go with what you have for now. While it is a bit small for two birds you are still looking at possibly having to get a second cage later on or rehoming one of them if they quit getting along. I really think that at this time that the mental and emotional damage done by separating them would be far greater than temporarily housing them in a cage that is a bit to small. Sometimes we may have to work with what we have until we can make it better. When you stop to consider things any cage that we can have even if that is a whole room is actually much too small for any bird.
I really know nothing about your circumstances, but there are factors that I am trying to take into account, such as you may find a larger place that you can afford, giving you the room for two cages or if they continue to get along a larger cage. So I am thinking that although you may not have room for two cages or even a larger one at this time that if it is not really adequate for the two birds that you would find a way to improve it as soon as you could. I figure that if they don't get along after puberty that you still have up to 8 or 9 months to prepare for a second cage. The cage you have is adequate for one bird of these sizes and if you have perches so that they can perch at different levels then you can make it work for a while. It can be a hard call to make , so I am preferring to share the facts and leave the decision to you as you are the only one that knows your resources and plans. All I can really say is that although this can work for a while you are going to have to consider either a larger cage or two cages at some point. Unless you choose to only get one of them.

[Leanna]

If those two birds are only 3 months old then there is no problem separating them, they are babies and they will not have that strong a bond, so only get them both if you really want too. The other thing to consider is if you get them both, they will begin to fight each other to establish who is the top bird and that is fine as babies, but may not be friendly as they get older. Jardines have a tendency to be one person birds and may not tolerate another bird at the time they make a strong bond with you. It is true that they may have less of a bond with you because of their bond to each other, but they will also establish bonds with you so you will have to decide if less interaction with you is okay. Also, they may have jealousy issues later on. If you are relatively new to birds, two birds is a lot more work. They will both expect to have the same treatment. If you are more experienced then you know the amount of work, and they are very different types of birds and both are very nice parrots to have. I would not house them together. They are different species and when they start the period of fights a cage is not big enough for one to get away from the other. You will need seperate cages eventually, so you can save money by getting their permanent cages now. I have housed different species together but I have a couple rooms converted into aviaries and the space is big enough there is lots of room to get away.

[Wolf]

Thank you, Leanna, for providing another perspective to this. It also got me to thinking as I was answering Amia based on the assumption that she actually wanted both of these birds and not just because they were together. So I guess that I should play the devils advocate, so to speak, and present a different point of view on this question.
Amia, the first thing to consider is whether you actually want both of these birds. Yes, they are together and are somewhat bonded, but this is the dependency bond that is found with siblings or similar to the parent/ child bond when applied to your role in their upbringing and in either case this is actually a very short lived bond and is destined to be replaced with the mate bond once they mature into adults. They both will drop this bond even with each other at this time and at this point may no longer get along well enough to remain in the same cage. So you will have to consider that you will need two cages to house both of these birds. In addition to this once they approach maturity and begin to establish the mate bond, which is the bond that we are actually wanting when we get a parrot, they will both most likely bond to you in such a manner that you may have to let them out of their cages at separate times, which effectively doubles the time that you are require to set aside for their well being. Since both are basically one person birds and if they both bond to you, then the time spent with one may invoke feelings of resentment and jealousy in either one or both of these birds.
It is possible that if they are of different sexes that they will mate bond with each other despite their being different species, but then again they might not.
Without knowing what you want and why it is very difficult to know how to answer you and it is more important that you know the answers than it is for us to know as we can easily adjust our answers according to what you want. You however will not have that option once you commit to one or both of these birds. If you are wanting both of them for themselves them you will find a way to accommodate their individual needs regardless of what they are. If you are considering both of them just because they are currently together, then that is the wrong reason and you should reconsider as you can find a suitable companion at a later date for either of these birds and as your ability to meet their needs improves.