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Solar schedule question

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Re: Solar schedule question

Postby Wolf » Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:06 pm

Paul Lewis wrote:The only birds that would get 12 hours light and 12 dark are from the equator. Most of our pet birds do not come from there. Birds that originate from Central America, Amazons, Conures, some macaws or from as far South as Uraguay or Argentina, Quakers, will get a great change in photoperiods much like Southern Californians do, plenty of birds come from Mexico which is a long way from the equator. Many behaviorists feel that birds need a 12 / 12 schedule as their birds get "moody" without enough sleep, nonsense, it's not natural. Full spectrum lights are great but I've never been convinced that they provide enough UV to aid in the synthesis of D3 to help calcium absorbtion. Birds do seem to like them however. If you were to add lighting to your birds area absolutely go with full spectrum. A 12 / 12 schedule shouldn't stimulate hormonal behavior either, usually you need to raise the photoperiod to 15-16 hours to stimulate breeding activity. Birds losing weight because they're seasonal feeders? Never heard of such a thing, but would love to see the studies.


After reading, thinking about what I read, rereading what you had to say and thinking about it some more, it occurs to me that if a bird is from the equatorial region then based on your statement that a 12L/ 12D schedule would not stimulate hormonal behavior and that it would take raising it to 15 to 16 hours of light or dark to stimulate breeding activity, there would be no equatorial birds breeding ever. This is due to the fact that in the equatorial region those conditions do not exist, thereby rendering your statement at best inaccurate.
All birds are seasonal feeders in the wild and this id due to the simple fact that there is not a single plant on this planet that produces 365 days a year, it grows, matures, fruits, dies back and then the process begins anew. This does in fact create periods when there is less food available to be eaten, which also lends credence to a certain amount of weight loss for any animal dependent upon that plant as a portion of its diet. This is common knowledge as well as common sense. I know this without needing a study of it because I live in a rural area and I see it all of the time.
I think that you really should consider doing a little more research into these things, perhaps even some field work so that you have the opportunity to observe these things for yourself.
I won't say that these behaviorialists are right about a 12d/ 12l schedule but it is perfectly normal and natural for a bird or any animal to get moody, cranky and bitey when they do not receive an adequate amount or quality of sleep, I know for a fact that I do.
Wolf
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Re: Solar schedule question

Postby Wolf » Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:44 am

I am not trying to be difficult, Paul, but I sincerely feel that you may have missed some things that could perhaps help you in your chosen line of work. Since you are looking for documentation, I am now in the process of trying to help you in gathering the documentation that you are seeking. I hope that you don't mind that I make comments of my own along the way, in addition to the various links that I will be providing here for you to look over. By the way, I do enjoy the mental stimulation provided by a good discussion.
One of the factors that I think that you may have overlooked is the fact that birds come in two types as far as I know when it come to photoperiodism and these are defined as long day breeders and short day breeders. I have both in my little family. I guess there are three types, because there are also a few that use other triggers than light to initiate breeding behavior, such is the case with budgies. And I just recently added a pair of them to the family as well, so I have all three of these. The end result of that is that I almost always have a bird that is slightly hormonal in my care. Any way here is my first link for your consideration.
http://www.reproduction-online.org/content/136/1/1.full
And another link: http://www.reproduction-online.org/content/136/1/1.full
I will be back with more for you later, but at the moment I need to feed my birds and then take a kitten to the vet's office. Let me know what you think of these links when you have gone over them and have the time.
Wolf
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Re: Solar schedule question

Postby Pajarita » Sun Dec 21, 2014 12:20 pm

Navre wrote:My GCC is generally on a solar schedule. She puts herself to bed on her own as the sun goes down, and I cover the cage later. In the morning she wakes me up by ringing her bell and I uncover her cage and let her out. This is never before dawn, but during dawn. It is usually pretty dark but she's not seeing the things start from total darkness. She does seem to wake up at about the same point in the sunrise as she did in the summer. It was around 6 am then, and it might be as late as 0730 now.

Do you think this is sufficient? I am asking because she seem to be exhibiting breeding behavior, along with being louder, more territorial, and more bitey.

She was hatched Jan 29, 2014. I don't know when greencheeks reach sexual maturity.

I also don't know for sure that she is female. I won't know for sure until there is some reason to draw blood or some event that results in blood. I have the cards here for feather sexing and blood sexing. I have opted against plucking chest feathers to have the bird sexed. Seems unnecessary. I don't want to do anything that might encourage plucking or cause pain unless there is a real reason for it.

Lately the bird has been backing into my hand, sticking her tail in the air, and making sounds that fledglings make when being hand fed. She will also flutter her wings as if taking a dust bath. I assume this is a breeding behavior. I'm trying not to touch her anywhere but on the head. I had been working with her on being held in my hand on her back, and holding her wings as I would like to eventually get her into the flying harness by springtime. I have suspended that training for now.



Well, you don't say at what time you turn off her lights in the evening so there is no way for us to tell whether she is, indeed, on a solar schedule or not (by the way, if she is now getting her cage uncovered at 7:30 am, she is not because dawn is almost all done by then). But, when it comes to parrots like GCCs which are mostly fruit eaters in the wild, protein intake plays an important part - and which kind of protein would make a difference in her maturation process. Unfortunately for bird keepers, all bird feeding formulas are made with soy and, with the notable exception of Tops, all pellets contain it so, if a little bird is handfed and then weaned on to pellets PLUS she is not kept at a strict solar schedule and it's fed higher protein than what she needs, she could very well be already a bit too hormonal when she should only be starting her puberty now. And yes, her behavior is definitely of a brooding hen.
Pajarita
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Flight: Yes

Re: Solar schedule question

Postby Pajarita » Sun Dec 21, 2014 12:26 pm

Wolf wrote:I am not trying to be difficult, Paul, but I sincerely feel that you may have missed some things that could perhaps help you in your chosen line of work. Since you are looking for documentation, I am now in the process of trying to help you in gathering the documentation that you are seeking. I hope that you don't mind that I make comments of my own along the way, in addition to the various links that I will be providing here for you to look over. By the way, I do enjoy the mental stimulation provided by a good discussion.
One of the factors that I think that you may have overlooked is the fact that birds come in two types as far as I know when it come to photoperiodism and these are defined as long day breeders and short day breeders. I have both in my little family. I guess there are three types, because there are also a few that use other triggers than light to initiate breeding behavior, such is the case with budgies. And I just recently added a pair of them to the family as well, so I have all three of these. The end result of that is that I almost always have a bird that is slightly hormonal in my care. Any way here is my first link for your consideration.
http://www.reproduction-online.org/content/136/1/1.full
And another link: http://www.reproduction-online.org/content/136/1/1.full
I will be back with more for you later, but at the moment I need to feed my birds and then take a kitten to the vet's office. Let me know what you think of these links when you have gone over them and have the time.



Both links bring you to the same study, Wolf. But you are right, of course. Not even temperate zone birds need 15 to 16 hours to breed. Canaries (one of the few species for which we have a completely accurate point of light refractoriness and entirely done from hundreds of years of observation, not studies, I might add!) do it at 13.5 to 14 hours. They actually go into molt at 15 hours of light.
Pajarita
Norwegian Blue
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is female
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Types of Birds Owned: RoseBreasted too, CAG, DoubleYellowHead Amazon, BlueFront Amazon, YellowNape Amazon, Senegal, African Redbelly, Quaker, Sun Conure, Nanday, BlackCap Caique, WhiteBelly Caique, PeachFace lovebird, budgies,
Flight: Yes

Re: Solar schedule question

Postby Navre » Sun Dec 21, 2014 12:43 pm

Pajarita wrote:
Well, you don't say at what time you turn off her lights in the evening so there is no way for us to tell whether she is, indeed, on a solar schedule or not (by the way, if she is now getting her cage uncovered at 7:30 am, she is not because dawn is almost all done by then). But, when it comes to parrots like GCCs which are mostly fruit eaters in the wild, protein intake plays an important part - and which kind of protein would make a difference in her maturation process. Unfortunately for bird keepers, all bird feeding formulas are made with soy and, with the notable exception of Tops, all pellets contain it so, if a little bird is handfed and then weaned on to pellets PLUS she is not kept at a strict solar schedule and it's fed higher protein than what she needs, she could very well be already a bit too hormonal when she should only be starting her puberty now. And yes, her behavior is definitely of a brooding hen.


Well, generally there are no lights on in there at all. There are four big windows and she is exposed to dusk and sunset. Maybe I shouldn't cover her at all? She has a hanging hut that she goes into on her own and sleeps there. My main reason for covering was for warmth and a bit more security feeling. She has walls on 2 sides of the cage, so maybe it's not necessary.

She is on the kaytee pellets that she was on at the store. She goes through and eats all the red pellets first. They were mixing it with some seeds but I eliminated them right away and shes didn't seem to mind. She gets fresh fruit every morning. Organic apples, organic grapes, assorted berries or whatever is around. I am feeding less vegetables and more fruit. Almost no vegetables now. She also gets dried papaya, dried kiwi, and sunflower seeds as treats.She gets some millet once a week.

I could probably switch her to TOPS. She likes the sample of harrisons that Mysafebirdstore sent. I do plan to try your gloop recipe. I remember making making some bean and rice thing for my CAG and freezing it in ice cube trays for single serving defrosting. I imagine that would be too much protien.

Thanks for your help and wolf's help, too.
Navre
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Re: Solar schedule question

Postby Wolf » Sun Dec 21, 2014 2:53 pm

I guess I did post the same link twice so allow me to do it again. So lets start with this link;
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/ ... 23017.long and then;
http://journal.frontiersin.org/Journal/ ... 00032/full
http://www.reproduction-online.org/content/136/1/1.full
http://jbr.sagepub.com/content/16/4/365 ... f_ipsecsha
All of these are related to photoperiodism and should help with understanding this in relation to birds.
Wolf
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Re: Solar schedule question

Postby GreenWing » Mon Dec 29, 2014 5:25 pm

I keep Chance on a solar schedule, although we do stay up together sometimes on weekends. Her cage is right next to the largest window in the house and she gets exposed to sunrise and sunset. I can assure you that this is the way to go - I have no problems with her regarding hormonal behaviors.
Image
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Re: Solar schedule question

Postby Navre » Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:13 pm

Because I don't wake up until the bird wakes me up (she rings a bell until I get her), I have stopped covering the cage at night. This way she can see the sunset and the sunrise. She does sleep in a little, hanging hut, so I feel she is warm enough and protected from drafts enough. The openings to the hut face east and west, and there is a window to the east, so she is probably woken up by the sun.

She is in the same room with my Egyptian Tortoise. The tortoise's UV active heat lamp was on a timer, 12 hours on, 12 hours off, but I now switch it on and off manually. I turn it on after the sun is fully up and turn it off after I notice it starting to get dark. The tortoise doesn't seem to mind. I've has her for 16 years and she has never once complained about anything.
Navre
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Re: Solar schedule question

Postby Pajarita » Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:32 pm

Check it out: an uncomplaining tortoise! :lol:

I cover the cages of the birds that are in the dining and living room because there are lights out on the street that shine through the windows and would bother them but I always do it after night has fallen and they are fast asleep and uncover them when there is the merest sliver of light beginning to show on the horizon and, so far, it has worked very well.

I'll be honest with you, those colored pellets are the worst. Birds like them because of the sugar content -which is bad for them- but they are full of artificial crap, too. Tops are much, much better and, if you are going to go the 'pellet route', they are the only ones I would recommend but, as I've stated before, my research of many years have indicated that pellets are really not the best dietary option and downright bad if they are free-fed (especially for GCCs which are mainly fruit eaters in the wild). My GCC gets gloop and produce for breakfast (and the very first thing she goes for is ALWAYS the fruit) and a budgie seed mix for dinner (about a heaping tablespoon, more or less).
Pajarita
Norwegian Blue
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is female
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Number of Birds Owned: 30
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Flight: Yes

Re: Solar schedule question

Postby Navre » Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:56 pm

She does prefer fruit to the pellets. Today she is having strawberries and mangos. Yesterday was organic apples and organic bananas. She also likes sugar snap peas. Other than the peas, she doesn't get much in the way of vegetables. She usually gets a piece of leafy green something-or-other when I feed the tortoise, because she insists. I think she mostly tears it up and eats very little.

She always goes for the red food first. She ONLY eats the red pellets, occasionally a yellow one. She grabs a pellet, runs it over to the water dish, dips it, and then eats it. I usually only giver her enough to cover the bottom of the dish.
Navre
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