Captive dogs in Vietnam

[Michael]

I know. I'm just stating that it is a hypocritical opinion to say killing life for food is bad and then doing that. You said you eat vegetables and that is killing life in as direct a forum as eating meat.

Humans are not autotrophic and no matter how you look at it, we have to consume other life forms. Whether you eat a steak or a carrot, some other life is being terminated to sustain your own. It's just the circle of life (remember the Lion King?). Whether you eat plant matter directly or through other animals, the purpose, result, and killing it are all natural facts of it.

I have no problem with eating meat or anyone else eating meat (or even just veggies)... It's just different when you eat your pets

If only we understood life better, I believe we would respect every creature and refrain from depriving their lives to feed ourselves.

I'm not try to single you out, it's just that you brought up a typical viewpoint that irritates me so I'm not so much responding to you specifically as that general belief. Fact is, by eating (whether its meat or plant) you are "depriving their lives to feed ourselves." The only way to give back to the environment is to die.

[entrancedbymyGCC]

I have no problem with eating meat or anyone else eating meat (or even just veggies)... It's just different when you eat your pets

But, to be devil's advocate, they aren't, they are eating food animals. They just happen to be animals you would more likely consider to be pets.

You don't need to go anywhere too exotic to be faced with this, many European countries eat horsemeat and I'm just hypocritical enough to want to avoid that (althogh there was that mixed meat plate in Noorwijk...I've never been too sure about that). There are even a few breeds raised explicitly for meat... and in the same countries, sporthorse events such as show jumping are far more popular than they are here! I have two moments when I was living in Spain that brought this home fairly clearly -- once I was standing in the Pryca in my riding breeches, doing the shopping on the way home from the barn, and found myself feeling awkward looking at the posters in the meat section showing the cuts of beef, pork, lamb... and horse. Then there was the time I was at Hipercor shopping and I picked up a package of really nice-looking steak. I almost put in my basket, but then I noticed it was labeled "Filete de Potro" -- filet of foal.

I wonder if they feed their meat dogs on a vegetarian diet -- we mostly eat herbivores.

[Michael]

By the way, notice that I tried not to pass too much judgment in captive birds and captive dogs in Vietnam topics. I was just trying to report on what I've found out about these during my trip without being too judgmental.

Unlike typical "vegans" who think that no one should have the right to eat meat, I have no problem with Vietnamese enjoying their dog sausages and what not. I don't think I'd enjoy the taste but the concept of eating it doesn't bother me that much. To me eating bird is far more a crime

[Alexander]

Fruits, nuts (seeds) and many vegetables do not disrupt the plant's life if you consume them. True, many of them carry the potential of life, but eating them you are not harming the plant. Furthermore, plants have much better regenerative abilities while others are only consumed when they have matured and lived the greatest part of their lives. It is possible to live without harming any creature, but I believe that would be an exaggeration.

No, we cannot energise our bodies like plants do for example, but we can feed ourselves as intelligently and with the greatest respect to life as possible...

[entrancedbymyGCC]

This is probably not the place for a human dietary debate, but I'll just say that I think it is very possible to respect animal life and still eat meat. After all, we all die at some point, it's a question of timing and process... personally, I'm not sure I'd mind if someone ate me after I was dead, although I hope to be old and tough and stringy.

What I care more about is humane husbandry during the animal's life. I try to buy meat that is free range, naturally fed, certified humanely raised, handled and yes, slaughtered, at least for animals that seem to have some spark of intelligence (it is a bit hard to work up a sense that a clam is self-aware, I might actually find a venus flytrap equally animated). I'd very much like to see tighter standards for care of food animals and their transportation and handling at slaughter facillities. Disturbing as it may be to think about, the actual process of slaughter is a pretty small fraction of an animal's life.

I know I sound a bit broken-record-like (anyone else atually remember vinyl?) always coming back to the equines, but I think in a lot of ways banning horse slaughter in the US made the lot of unwanted horses that much worse. The transport conditions were already horrendous, and now they are just being transported that much further, over the borders. And those that are unwanted and can't be sold for meat anymore, are sometimes simply abandoned or turned loose to starve to death. There are actually worse things than being eaten.

[Alexander]

You mentioned some interesting things, entrancedbymyGCC. The way the slaughtering process is executed not only determines how "peaceful" an end the animal will have, but also the quality of the meat obtained. Also, I can only suspect that more intelligent animals will be able to evaluate better what is happening to them and thus be affected more by the whole process hence the need to be more considerate when handling such animals.

By the way, I was perplexed regarding the unwanted horses. Can't they be trained for equine therapy programs or be put in zoos or something (and why are they unwanted in the first place)?

[entrancedbymyGCC]

By the way, I was perplexed regarding the unwanted horses. Can't they be trained for equine therapy programs or be put in zoos or something (and why are they unwanted in the first place)?

Not so easy as that. Not every horse is suited to be a therapy horse for one thing, for another, at this point in time most programs are full, as are most rescues. Some horses become unwanted because the owner can't afford them anymore. Sometimes they are no longer sound enough to do the job they once did. Sometimes it is a matter of age. Sometimes of health. Sometimes of a behavior problem the owner can't handle. And, of course, there are always people who lose interest, move, go away to school, get divorced....lose their nerve.

[Michael]

Sounds a lot like typical parrot rehome issues. At least we don't eat them right? Even if we did though, you'd be hard pressed to get 300 Calories out of something that size...

[entrancedbymyGCC]

Sounds a lot like typical parrot rehome issues. At least we don't eat them right? Even if we did though, you'd be hard pressed to get 300 Calories out of something that size...

LOL. I have to admit that I now find guinea hen slightly off-putting!

I did leave out two "industrial" sources of unwanted horses which probably don't have any analog for parrots -- the racing industry and the PMU industry. Horses can live to be 35 and race horses are typically done with their careers by age 3, when they aren't even physically mature yet. While they can be retrained, many don't have the easiest temperaments and many more aren't really sound after all that pounding. Some racehorse owners do care for their retirees, but many more see them only as spent commodities. PMU (Pregnant Mare Urine) mares are kept pregnant as much as possible so the urine can be harvested for hormome supplement manufacturing. That produces a lot of foals that then need homes. At least the PMU farmers have gotten somewhat smarter about producing halfway-decently bred horses, but these are essentially unhandled babies that need experienced owners, in a market where there are already too many horses.

[MandyG]

Horses can live to be 35 and race horses are typically done with their careers by age 3, when they aren't even physically mature yet. While they can be retrained, many don't have the easiest temperaments and many more aren't really sound after all that pounding.

My thoroughbred mare was a racehorse. She only started 3 races and performed poorly in each of them so she was sold off. In my opinion she's lucky that she got out of the industry as early as she did and was sold to a great family (the family that had her before I did).

PMU (Pregnant Mare Urine) mares are kept pregnant as much as possible so the urine can be harvested for hormome supplement manufacturing. That produces a lot of foals that then need homes. At least the PMU farmers have gotten somewhat smarter about producing halfway-decently bred horses, but these are essentially unhandled babies that need experienced owners, in a market where there are already too many horses.

As for the PMU, I'm not sure about other countries but in Canada the foals cannot be sold for meat. Although once they are sold I don't believe there's any way of preventing the new owners from sending them down that path. The majority of people I know that have PMU farms take them down to the states where some of their biggest customers are Mennonite colonies. And yes, they definitely do flood the market. Thankfully (for the horses, not the owners) the PMU contracts have been significantly reduced in Canada. I believe there's only about 25 farms left withing Saskatchewan, Manitoba and North Dakota. In a way it's good because thousands of mares will no longer be producing but I'm scared to think what will happen with the horses that were on the line in the last year that will be no longer needed.

And of course there are the endless stories of people being very affected by the economy and no longer being able to feed their animals. I try not to pay attention to those stories though because they make me really sad.

Sorry to remain so far off-topic.